o_O S2000 | Mk I — Stage II
01-23-2013, 03:54 PM
#111
Awesome videos, awesome car, awesome build dude. Look forward to more! 
01-23-2013, 07:06 PM
#112
Thread Starter
Apologies. I didn't mean to make you feel bad. You're enjoying the car as you should and sharing your experiences with us in a very enjoyable way. Continue to enjoy the car and share with us - my opinion is simply that (mine). I completely agree that the Ferrari driver should have yielded to you and the car behind you from the looks of it). Truth be told I would have been just as annoyed (if not more so) had I been in your situation. Just keep your beautiful example of an S2000 tire side down.
Looking forward to more of this thread.
Looking forward to more of this thread.
My S2000 will always remain tire side down, even if the tires aren't always touching the ground.
01-23-2013, 07:09 PM
#113
Thread Starter
I have certain goals I want to hit before I start modifying the car, even though I know exactly how I want to modify it and have already began purchasing parts when a good deal comes up. I have certain lap times in mind for Thunderhill and Laguna Seca I want to hit in a stock S2000 and then the party really begins.
02-01-2013, 10:56 AM
#114
Thread Starter
Just wanted to provide a simple update, I had mentioned awhile back that I was using 34-35 psi cold in the S-04 tires that were on my car when I purchased it. These tires had a very different sidewall makeup compared to my current RE-11s, so this helped improve the responsiveness and feel.
After some experimenting I have found that the standard 32 psi cold usually works out well in most situations. I end up right around 38psi hot which works well on most mountain road surfaces, and seems to be the norm for street tires on the track as well. I slowed myself down a lot by running too high of a pressure at Thunderhill, can't wait to give the RE-11s another proper thrashing at Laguna Seca this Sunday, will definitely report back as much as I can from that event!
After some experimenting I have found that the standard 32 psi cold usually works out well in most situations. I end up right around 38psi hot which works well on most mountain road surfaces, and seems to be the norm for street tires on the track as well. I slowed myself down a lot by running too high of a pressure at Thunderhill, can't wait to give the RE-11s another proper thrashing at Laguna Seca this Sunday, will definitely report back as much as I can from that event!
02-01-2013, 12:11 PM
#116
Thread Starter
It really can be a challenge to keep tire temperature up out in the mountains, especially with the recent weather. Higher pressure definitely improves the feel a bit, it is just about finding the best compromise really. The increased feel comes with other downsides that have to be considered as well.
02-01-2013, 04:52 PM
#117
Former Moderator
Just wanted to provide an update (a large novel) after using the HC+800 for a little over 3000 miles. To just provide a bit of background on my usage:
Car:
2006 AP2 S2000, all completely OEM except:
-225 F 255 R Bridgestone RE-11 tires (step up from standard 215/245)
-Project µ HC+800 F & R pads (installed on rotors that have likely never been changed from the factory and were not resurfaced. Installed without OEM pad shims/grease).
-ATE Type 200 amber brake fluid (ATE blue)
I have quite a lot of seat time driving FF and FR cars over the years in various conditions, and since buying my S2000 in October 2012 have logged hours and hours of seat time and am very comfortable driving the car to it's limit in less than ideal conditions and at the track.
Driving conditions:
The pads were used at 1 track day at Thunderhill Raceway, seven 20 minute sessions. And used very heavily on the street. I drive a lot, more than most people could comprehend. Every weekend since I have owned my car it goes through close to 100 miles of extremely spirited driving on the touge (in the mountains), easily the equivalent of a half a track day if not more just in terms of amount of time driving, rain or shine. Driving in the mountains is much more about the limit of the driver instead of the limit of the car but the car goes through a lot of strain for different reasons. The roads I drive put huge strain on the braking system as there is actual elevation change, way beyond what you would ever get at a circuit, ear popping elevation change, and it isn't uncommon to brake heavily from 100 mph going downhill into tight hairpins or continuous radius corners. Running 10 minutes straight doing nothing but downhill corner after downhill corner and driving the car to the limit of the tires is extremely abusive on the front brakes. Because of the different environment I would say the pads go through just as much abuse as they would in a 20 minute session at a track day in an uphill+downhill run in the mountains. The extra grip level at the track is replaced my the lack of straights and just the sheer amount of corners in one of those 10 minute runs compared to a track. The one less abusive factor is a single run is around 10 minutes instead of a longer 20 minute sessions, with decent cool down in between and this driving takes place very late at night, so the ambient temps are nice and low. To sum up, these pads have seen just as much abuse in a few weekends as I put them through at a track day at Thunderhill, and this happens at least once a week or every other week over the past 14 weeks, if you don't believe that is possible, that is perfectly fine, but it is.
Anyway, to the real topic at hand. I absolutely love these brake pads, they are exactly what I was looking for upgrading from the AP2 OEM pads. These are excellent for someone with a close to stock or light tuned S2000 who does very spirited mountain driving and the occasional track day and drives at a level at the track that would destroy the OEM pads quickly.
Fade:
With the OEM pads there were definitely situations nearing the end of a run where I would start to get some fade on downhill runs. Fade on the track is no fun, fade in the mountains is very dangerous. I think most people would be fine doing some spirited driving on the street with the OEM pads but this is a very different scenario. OEM aren't bad pads at all, but their operating range is just not enough in this situation. The HC+800 pads have had no issues with fading with any of the driving I do in the mountains, excellent improvement in this particular area compared to the OEM pads. I would imagine people doing dedicated time attack with lightly tuned S2000s could possibly have fading issues with these at certain tracks and with certain driving styles, but I don't understand how someone expects a nearly stock street/time-attack car to not have issues with fade when trying to do 5+ flying laps in a row. Even many dedicated time attack cars only manage a few true flying laps due to precise warm-up cool down procedures and it is no different for a lightly tuned car. I definitely need more time at the track with these to make a complete opinion, but this pad is not designed to be an ultra high-temp dedicated track pad, and it does a very good job at the street and at the track while many dedicated track pads fail miserably in the variable conditions on the street.
Initial bite:
Another solid improvement over the AP2 OEM pads with a slight increase in initial bite at all temperatures. The initial bite of the OEM pads was fine, but definitely not as predictable as the HC+800, as the temperature goes up, it only gets more predictable.
Feel:
Much improved over the OEM pads, nice and linear with the improvement in initial bite and easy to modulate through the rest of the braking phase. I am often braking heavily in conditions where the grip level could change from corner to corner, and some corners may have a more drastic incline, and I have had no issues making quick adjustments while braking to stay at or close to the threshold of the tires. I think this is mainly because of the excellent backing plate and obviously the pad compound.
Build:
As already mentioned, strong backing plate, keeps feel consistent. The paint did not burn off immediately but after around 1000 miles (including all commuting and under the conditions mentioned previously) and the 1 track day the paint had burned away. Nothing to be concerned about but thought it was worth mentioning since I was consistently checking out the pads whenever returning home. Dust is very similar to AP2 OEM pads which do generate plenty of dust, but nothing to be alarmed about. With light use on the street and occasional track days I doubt dust would be a major concert at all.
Lifespan:
This is tough because I think my rotors have probably made a large impact on this (heavily used and not resurfaced), but I have definitely gotten close to the end of the life of my front pads. The rear pads are at around 60%. Of the 3000 miles that I have used them, I would say at least 1600 of those miles is heavy use if not more, I have an extremely short commute and most of the time I spend in my car is at the mountains. People tend to measure pad life in track days so my usage would be equivalent to 7-8 track days including the Thunderhill trackday. (14 touge weekends + 1 track day). I am not overly abusive on the brakes but I am used to very late braking in lightweight FF cars. I do not gently ease into hard braking, I brake hard and deliberately, using a lead car or nature's brake marker boards as reference points. When I am following another car, it is almost impossible for me to not try to go beyond their braking point, even if by just a small amount. I think 7-8 track days equivalent usage is quite good. If used in normal conditions on the street I would expect the HC+800 to last just as long if not longer than the OEM AP2 pad. If I used the OEM AP2 pads I would guess I would have used them up in 1 track day. I will provide more complete info on this in the future but I think the HC+800 are pretty easy on rotors as well.
Pros:
-Price, I don't think there are really many solid pad options in this street/track hybrid category, and these are a great value for money.
-work well at ALL temperatures, no problems with initial bite leaving my place in the cold early in the morning. Get up to good operating temperature quickly between runs on the mountains after sitting in cold weather (40F ambient temps).
-build quality
-feel
-lifespan
-dust similar to AP2 OEM (perfectly reasonable)
-Suzuka green
Cons:
-slight squeak under certain circumstances (more so in wet/dirty conditions), not anywhere near the squeal you get from some track pads, and almost certainly caused buy the conditions I drive in and the used non-resurfaced rotors they were installed on). Hard to actually consider this a con until I test my next set with new rotors.
-the Suzuka green paint is gone
Update: Just wanted to update after taking a closer look at my front brakes. The front pads are actually still at about 20-25%, it is mainly the rotors that are toast. I am guessing these are the original factory rotors as the car seemed to be babied before I got it. I am thinking a lot of the sound I was getting from the pads (although still subtle) could definitely be to the surface condition of the rotors, there are no real major issues with them (no hairline surface cracks or anything) but they have developed quite a nice lip around the outer edges, especially on the inner face of the rotor.
Next week I should be replacing the front rotors with OEM and new HC+800 pads up front, so I will be able to do an even more controlled test. The weather is starting to improve as well so should have some more data on these pads soon! I plan on sticking with these for the long term really.
Overall couldn't be happier with the HC+800. I would love to try other brake pads but I just don't think I have any reason to for now. I plan to keep my car stock for quite sometime so I can collect a good amount of data before I start any major modifications, but in terms of future brake modifications, the plans I have are really as simple as just moving to a 4 piston caliper in the front (most likely Spoon) for the improved feel and more efficient cooling and increased pad/rotor life that would likely bring with it. And brake ducts as well if I find them to be necessary after moving to different front calipers. The ATE type 200 has been fine so far but I do have this feeling that I may have been very close to cooking the fluid in a few situations, but no major issues after many hours logged, and the price of ATE is great. I may also look into stainless brake lines or heat protected OEM lines to keep them from getting damaged.
Sorry for the extremely long write up and all of the extra information, but I think it is completely impossible to give quality info on brake pads in just a few sentences. It is highly subjective and a matter of driving style and preference, finding the characteristics that you in particular are after, so I wanted to provide as much info as I could. Also apologies for not providing a dedicated track use review but I just find touge driving to be much more interesting as much as I love the track. I know my type of usage is not common but I think it has been accurately related to more common types of usage. I plan on picking up another set of OEM rotors and HC+800 pads so I will definitely update if I notice any improvements using the pads on brand new rotors. To anyone who read all the way through this that would like a better example of what I mean when I say 'touge driving' PM me and I would be happy to provide you with hours of content as a lot of this driving is well documented.
Car:
2006 AP2 S2000, all completely OEM except:
-225 F 255 R Bridgestone RE-11 tires (step up from standard 215/245)
-Project µ HC+800 F & R pads (installed on rotors that have likely never been changed from the factory and were not resurfaced. Installed without OEM pad shims/grease).
-ATE Type 200 amber brake fluid (ATE blue)
I have quite a lot of seat time driving FF and FR cars over the years in various conditions, and since buying my S2000 in October 2012 have logged hours and hours of seat time and am very comfortable driving the car to it's limit in less than ideal conditions and at the track.
Driving conditions:
The pads were used at 1 track day at Thunderhill Raceway, seven 20 minute sessions. And used very heavily on the street. I drive a lot, more than most people could comprehend. Every weekend since I have owned my car it goes through close to 100 miles of extremely spirited driving on the touge (in the mountains), easily the equivalent of a half a track day if not more just in terms of amount of time driving, rain or shine. Driving in the mountains is much more about the limit of the driver instead of the limit of the car but the car goes through a lot of strain for different reasons. The roads I drive put huge strain on the braking system as there is actual elevation change, way beyond what you would ever get at a circuit, ear popping elevation change, and it isn't uncommon to brake heavily from 100 mph going downhill into tight hairpins or continuous radius corners. Running 10 minutes straight doing nothing but downhill corner after downhill corner and driving the car to the limit of the tires is extremely abusive on the front brakes. Because of the different environment I would say the pads go through just as much abuse as they would in a 20 minute session at a track day in an uphill+downhill run in the mountains. The extra grip level at the track is replaced my the lack of straights and just the sheer amount of corners in one of those 10 minute runs compared to a track. The one less abusive factor is a single run is around 10 minutes instead of a longer 20 minute sessions, with decent cool down in between and this driving takes place very late at night, so the ambient temps are nice and low. To sum up, these pads have seen just as much abuse in a few weekends as I put them through at a track day at Thunderhill, and this happens at least once a week or every other week over the past 14 weeks, if you don't believe that is possible, that is perfectly fine, but it is.
Anyway, to the real topic at hand. I absolutely love these brake pads, they are exactly what I was looking for upgrading from the AP2 OEM pads. These are excellent for someone with a close to stock or light tuned S2000 who does very spirited mountain driving and the occasional track day and drives at a level at the track that would destroy the OEM pads quickly.
Fade:
With the OEM pads there were definitely situations nearing the end of a run where I would start to get some fade on downhill runs. Fade on the track is no fun, fade in the mountains is very dangerous. I think most people would be fine doing some spirited driving on the street with the OEM pads but this is a very different scenario. OEM aren't bad pads at all, but their operating range is just not enough in this situation. The HC+800 pads have had no issues with fading with any of the driving I do in the mountains, excellent improvement in this particular area compared to the OEM pads. I would imagine people doing dedicated time attack with lightly tuned S2000s could possibly have fading issues with these at certain tracks and with certain driving styles, but I don't understand how someone expects a nearly stock street/time-attack car to not have issues with fade when trying to do 5+ flying laps in a row. Even many dedicated time attack cars only manage a few true flying laps due to precise warm-up cool down procedures and it is no different for a lightly tuned car. I definitely need more time at the track with these to make a complete opinion, but this pad is not designed to be an ultra high-temp dedicated track pad, and it does a very good job at the street and at the track while many dedicated track pads fail miserably in the variable conditions on the street.
Initial bite:
Another solid improvement over the AP2 OEM pads with a slight increase in initial bite at all temperatures. The initial bite of the OEM pads was fine, but definitely not as predictable as the HC+800, as the temperature goes up, it only gets more predictable.
Feel:
Much improved over the OEM pads, nice and linear with the improvement in initial bite and easy to modulate through the rest of the braking phase. I am often braking heavily in conditions where the grip level could change from corner to corner, and some corners may have a more drastic incline, and I have had no issues making quick adjustments while braking to stay at or close to the threshold of the tires. I think this is mainly because of the excellent backing plate and obviously the pad compound.
Build:
As already mentioned, strong backing plate, keeps feel consistent. The paint did not burn off immediately but after around 1000 miles (including all commuting and under the conditions mentioned previously) and the 1 track day the paint had burned away. Nothing to be concerned about but thought it was worth mentioning since I was consistently checking out the pads whenever returning home. Dust is very similar to AP2 OEM pads which do generate plenty of dust, but nothing to be alarmed about. With light use on the street and occasional track days I doubt dust would be a major concert at all.
Lifespan:
This is tough because I think my rotors have probably made a large impact on this (heavily used and not resurfaced), but I have definitely gotten close to the end of the life of my front pads. The rear pads are at around 60%. Of the 3000 miles that I have used them, I would say at least 1600 of those miles is heavy use if not more, I have an extremely short commute and most of the time I spend in my car is at the mountains. People tend to measure pad life in track days so my usage would be equivalent to 7-8 track days including the Thunderhill trackday. (14 touge weekends + 1 track day). I am not overly abusive on the brakes but I am used to very late braking in lightweight FF cars. I do not gently ease into hard braking, I brake hard and deliberately, using a lead car or nature's brake marker boards as reference points. When I am following another car, it is almost impossible for me to not try to go beyond their braking point, even if by just a small amount. I think 7-8 track days equivalent usage is quite good. If used in normal conditions on the street I would expect the HC+800 to last just as long if not longer than the OEM AP2 pad. If I used the OEM AP2 pads I would guess I would have used them up in 1 track day. I will provide more complete info on this in the future but I think the HC+800 are pretty easy on rotors as well.
Pros:
-Price, I don't think there are really many solid pad options in this street/track hybrid category, and these are a great value for money.
-work well at ALL temperatures, no problems with initial bite leaving my place in the cold early in the morning. Get up to good operating temperature quickly between runs on the mountains after sitting in cold weather (40F ambient temps).
-build quality
-feel
-lifespan
-dust similar to AP2 OEM (perfectly reasonable)
-Suzuka green
Cons:
-slight squeak under certain circumstances (more so in wet/dirty conditions), not anywhere near the squeal you get from some track pads, and almost certainly caused buy the conditions I drive in and the used non-resurfaced rotors they were installed on). Hard to actually consider this a con until I test my next set with new rotors.
-the Suzuka green paint is gone
Update: Just wanted to update after taking a closer look at my front brakes. The front pads are actually still at about 20-25%, it is mainly the rotors that are toast. I am guessing these are the original factory rotors as the car seemed to be babied before I got it. I am thinking a lot of the sound I was getting from the pads (although still subtle) could definitely be to the surface condition of the rotors, there are no real major issues with them (no hairline surface cracks or anything) but they have developed quite a nice lip around the outer edges, especially on the inner face of the rotor.
Next week I should be replacing the front rotors with OEM and new HC+800 pads up front, so I will be able to do an even more controlled test. The weather is starting to improve as well so should have some more data on these pads soon! I plan on sticking with these for the long term really.
Overall couldn't be happier with the HC+800. I would love to try other brake pads but I just don't think I have any reason to for now. I plan to keep my car stock for quite sometime so I can collect a good amount of data before I start any major modifications, but in terms of future brake modifications, the plans I have are really as simple as just moving to a 4 piston caliper in the front (most likely Spoon) for the improved feel and more efficient cooling and increased pad/rotor life that would likely bring with it. And brake ducts as well if I find them to be necessary after moving to different front calipers. The ATE type 200 has been fine so far but I do have this feeling that I may have been very close to cooking the fluid in a few situations, but no major issues after many hours logged, and the price of ATE is great. I may also look into stainless brake lines or heat protected OEM lines to keep them from getting damaged.
Sorry for the extremely long write up and all of the extra information, but I think it is completely impossible to give quality info on brake pads in just a few sentences. It is highly subjective and a matter of driving style and preference, finding the characteristics that you in particular are after, so I wanted to provide as much info as I could. Also apologies for not providing a dedicated track use review but I just find touge driving to be much more interesting as much as I love the track. I know my type of usage is not common but I think it has been accurately related to more common types of usage. I plan on picking up another set of OEM rotors and HC+800 pads so I will definitely update if I notice any improvements using the pads on brand new rotors. To anyone who read all the way through this that would like a better example of what I mean when I say 'touge driving' PM me and I would be happy to provide you with hours of content as a lot of this driving is well documented.
A+ for length
02-01-2013, 04:58 PM
#118
Former Moderator
