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Double Wishbone Suspension

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Old 11-18-2011, 09:21 AM   #1
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Default Double Wishbone Suspension

Ah yes the day is here when it is time to set the record straight ! Several years ago I read an article in which was said that Honda said their Double Wishbone design is F1 derived and another idiot here thinks I said Honda invented it.
So here is proof of what I said is true! Page 54 of the NSX book by Brian Long has an early NSX brochure reprinted with the article on that page about Suspension.
In that article it said" The goal was to make a car that is a responsive and willing ally of the driver instead of a machine that has to be coaxed into going fast. "
"To accomplish this the resarch staff borrowed a page from FORMULA ONE TECHNOLOGY and developed an upper and lower control arm or double wishbone design for both front and rear suspensions. "
This is what I said all along Honda's double wishbone design is F1 derived ! Their words not mine!
Some other cars have a double wishbone design but I am not sure which ones they are . Anybody know which ones???
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:25 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Silverstreak HX View Post
Ah yes the day is here when it is time to set the record straight ! Several years ago I read an article in which was said that Honda said their Double Wishbone design is F1 derived and another idiot here thinks I said Honda invented it.
So here is proof of what I said is true! Page 54 of the NSX book by Brian Long has an early NSX brochure reprinted with the article on that page about Suspension.
In that article it said" The goal was to make a car that is a responsive and willing ally of the driver instead of a machine that has to be coaxed into going fast. "
"To accomplish this the resarch staff borrowed a page from FORMULA ONE TECHNOLOGY and developed an upper and lower control arm or double wishbone design for both front and rear suspensions. "
This is what I said all along Honda's double wishbone design is F1 derived ! Their words not mine!
Some other cars have a double wishbone design but I am not sure which ones they are . Anybody know which ones???
There are tons and tons of cars with a double wishbone suspension design. It would take a while to list them all. Of course do you know what doesn't have a double wishbone design anymore? The Civic
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:33 AM   #3
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This is your attempt to set the record straight; by revealing the complete depths of your ignorance? At first I thought Rockville was maybe being a little harsh on you, but you clearly are ignorant on this subject matter.

Yes, they use wishbone suspension on Formula 1 cars, but if you have any understanding of suspension geometry at all (let alone the other vehicle systems that work in unison with a F1 car's suspension) then it should be painfully obvious that they the statements you are quoted are hyperbole.

Wishbone suspension designs are not exclusive to F1, they pre date anything that remotely resembles a modern (even by 1980's standards) F1 car, and are not a simple "one size fits all" application by any stretch of the imagination. To say that a car has wishbone suspension is like saying that a car has an internal combustion engine. There are still a million variations upon variations. And just the same way that if Honda was to put a V10 into a production car, that would be vaguely similar to the v10 that they used in F1, but only to the extent that it has the same basic arrangement; everything about the engine (the size of the pistons, the material of the pistons, the material of the block, the valvetrain assembly, the oiling system, everything) would be entirely dissimilar between the F1 version and the road going version, yet Honda would clearly capitalize on the relationship.

What wishbone suspension means in practical terms is that you have an upper control arm "system" (I say system because the control arms do not actually have to look like a wishbone shape at all in order to still be a wishbone suspension) and a lower control arm system which each produce their own arcs independent of one another and have a collective resultant arc that is formed from their combined arcs which, in conjunction with a symmetrical system on the other side of the car and in relation to certain relative dimensions of the vehicle, create a geometric anomaly about which the vehicle's mass rolls.

There are an infinite number of variables such that any significant departure from the basic layout of one design relative to another will result in two entirely different systems that are only alike in that they are both technically wishbone setups. For instance, if you take the rear subframe from a Corvette (which has a wishbone suspension setup), cut it in half, and put the left and right side suspension assemblies on chassis two different chassis of different width, you have effectively changed the suspension geometry! So even though each side still has the exact same camber curves, etc., the fact that the track width relative to the suspension arcs is different will have considerable impact on how the suspension geometry works in each of the two vehicles, and that is just from changing a single variable. In doing so, all of the setup data that you have about the first car is different from that of the second car. In other words, even when the suspension links are the same length, the pickup points identical, the camber curves the same, the caster the same, the uprights identical, etc. you still end up with what is, geometrically speaking, two dissimilar systems that are, again, only similar in that they are both wishbone setups.

Now imagine the degree of dissimilarity when you start talking about different length wishbones (control arms) different camber curves, so on an so forth.

Then you have to consider the considerable differences between the intended use of a road car or an F1 car. The F1 car (particularly one of the 80's) will have suspension that is really undermined in almost every appreciable way such that it favors a stable and consistent aerodynamic setup. For instance, these cars employ spring frequencies in the 1000 hz range (which means that the suspension is practically incompressible), an inch or less of suspension travel, etc.

In other words, any data obtained from F1 racing in terms of wishbone suspension design would be 100% non-applicable to any road car. However, and this is a big however, those who master the multitude of adjustments within such a narrow window of operation and in a field where a 10th of a second improvement in lap times is an eternity (read: in the competitive field of F1 racing) will certainly be well qualified to design a wishbone suspension setup for a sporty road car. There is a trickle down of expertise and of creative engineering, much the same way that a NAVY seal would make a good SWAT team officer. Better yet, it's analogous to the way that a defense manufacturer who builds fighter jets would have the skills to "effortlessly" make great single-seater airplanes, but just like Honda, the defense contractor may allude to the fact that their expertise and technology in building top of the line machinery may provide them a competitive edge in designing lower end equipment (the halo car effect, if you will), but also like Honda, the defense contractor is not going to actually use fighter plane technology or parts in their single-seater, just as Honda did not literally adapt formula technology or equipment into the NSX.

I am a huge fan of the NSX and it is a great car; maybe even my favorite. But to believe the hyperbolic ramblings of a Honda spokesperson and to ignore the wealth of knowledge that is available regarding the history, application, and theoretical elements of wishbone suspension design simply illustrates that you've got your blinders on or are just willfully ignorant on the subject, and therefore, are not qualified to make any "see, I told you so" type of posts.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:44 AM   #4
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My MK3 Supra Turbo, both front and rear.

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Old 11-18-2011, 10:52 AM   #5
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I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:45 AM   #6
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I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.
I can't figure out why you idiots are getting bent out of shape because this is what HONDA CLAIMS that the NSX double wishbone design was derived from the F1 car . What exactly that means is up to some interpretation. I am just REPEATING WHAT HONDA CLAIMS which means to me their version is based off the race car suspension modified to work on a road car !
It is in the NSX book that HONDA says that their double wishbone suspension is F1 derived so if you don't like it write Honda and tell them that you believe that their claim is BULLSHIT marketing! Let's see what they say?
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:47 AM   #7
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I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.
Go for it.
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:13 PM   #8
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We're the idiots because we actually understand the subject matter enough to have a conversation about it (I assume you are referring to me and Rockville who has yet joined the party), yet you're the one who is duped by marketing lingo? Ok, buddy.

There is a recent Acura commercial where Honda claims that the TSX wagon is built on a sports car chassis, or some such nonsense. Honda is a company that sells cars, first and foremost. Like most companies, they are all too willing to play off of people like you who can't see where the line is blurred by such statements. Additionally, you suck at quoting since the Honda rep says one quote, and the rest of what you mention is presumably the words of the author of the book, so no, it definitely doesn't look like that is what Honda is saying. You are misinterpreting the author's liberal adaptation of the intention of a quote.

Think of it like this. If they were talking about VTEC, they may very well say something along the lines of, "Honda wanted an engine that produced useable high end power, so they borrowed a page from their F1 program and came up with VTEC." That merely implies that they knew they needed variable valve timing in order for an engine to make power across a broad RPM range. VTEC is another way of accomplishing the same basic goal that they may have in an F1 engine, but they didn't get VTEC from their F1 program, since variable valve timing is addressed in a completely different way in F1. However, in their F1 program they did probably learn a great deal about variable valve timing, and they could use that understanding to create a lower-end system, but that does not mean that they literally applied F1 technology.

Do F1 cars and the NSX both use wishbone suspension setup? Yes. Are the same type of wishbone suspension? Nope. Not even close.

Again, if you believe for one second that the NSX suspension is adapted from F1 suspension, all you are doing is revealing that you don't know enough to have this conversation. You are making some sort of literal interpretation of what they allegedly said and trying to somehow prove a point, yet you're just making yourself look like a bigger goddamn idiot than we already thought you were.

Like I said, Honda's engineers that worked in their F1 program would certainly have gained experience and knowledge that can trickle down to the NSX, but the NSX's suspension is so radically different in design and the intended use of the car so unbelievably different in intent that nary a single F1 suspension component would be useful on the NSX.
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mr.E.G.' timestamp='1321642325' post='21168236
I'm really having a hard time not making fun of you here. I'm trying though... I'm really trying.
I can't figure out why you idiots are getting bent out of shape because this is what HONDA CLAIMS that the NSX double wishbone design was derived from the F1 car . What exactly that means is up to some interpretation. I am just REPEATING WHAT HONDA CLAIMS which means to me their version is based off the race car suspension modified to work on a road car !
It is in the NSX book that HONDA says that their double wishbone suspension is F1 derived so if you don't like it write Honda and tell them that you believe that their claim is BULLSHIT marketing! Let's see what they say?

That's the thing though, it seems clear that you are taking the author's words and quoting them as if it came from the horse's mouth. Not to mention all of the other points I've mention over and over.
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:19 PM   #10
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And to answer your original question, there are literally HUNDREDS of non-Hondas that have used double wishbone suspension. Again, the fact that you don't seem to even understand that is staggering.
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