MaxLife - a sleeper oil, and a decent additive

Been meaning to "out" this product.

There have been a bunch of "high-mileage" products - is this just marketing BS? And are they the same?

No, and no.

Valvoline's MaxLife is a very sophisticated lubricant, and a killer deal when bought on sale. It is a very good choice for higher mileage cars of any manufacturer, but certainly for S2000's with 50K or more. I use it in my Outback.

It is between 12 and 22% synthetic! Not just a Group III hydrocracked synthetic, but the real deal. A sizeable portion of the synthetic is likely an ester, which is the "seal conditioning" agent. ML also is high in zinc anti-wear compounds for an SL-rated oil. It also has higher amounts of friction modifiers and detergents.

They also make an additive that is of interest to S2000 owners, especially if you are considering changing out the "break-in" oil. The additive has much higher levels of moly than found in motor oils, around 5% by weight. It also has higher levels of zinc than found in the SL-rated oils Honda recommends. It seems logical to me that Honda wants those compounds in the oil during break-in, but wants to "protect" its catalytic converters over the long haul, which SL-rated oils do by limiting the zinc/phosphorous anti-wear components. The MaxLife additive also has high levels of detergents which would be a benefit in a new engine to suspend the assembly materials that often get into the inititial fill. That is one reason why some of us would like to change out the oil at 1K miles.

I looked at Pennzoil's High Mileage product and it is not in the same league. It is just a forified version of their regular 10w30.

Great info. I have heard good things about the MaxLife and I will switch out in my old Bronco...

Very interesting facts...

I've been using Valvoline Durablend 10w30 the last couple of oil changes i have done. Now, i currently have about 60,000 miles on my S2000. Do you think it would be a good idea for my to switch to the Valvoline Maxlife oil rather than their Durablend oil?

RR -can you clarify -- Is the additive that you mention a separate product or part of MaxLife?

--Mike

It is a special and separate product.

Durablend vs MaxLife? - MaxLife is the better product by far. Durablend is like Pennzoil's product - a fortified regular oil with Group III components. ML gas GIV/GV.

just use Mobil1, which is a Group IV Synthetic oil (PAO) based "polyalphaolefins" oil with Esters (group V) as it's additives.. at Wallyworld, you can find it between 20 and 23 dollars for 5 quarts in the 5 qt jug..

Well, I went to my local automotive shop today and picked up a case of Valvoline MaxLife 10w30. I first used Mobil 1 when i did oil changes, but after reading everyone's opinion about using a synthetic oil and then changing it out after 3,000 miles is kind of a waste...I decided to switch to Valvoline Durablned the last two oil changes.

Today i got each bottle on sale for $1.89, which is half the cost of Mobil 1. Since my car is about to hit 60,000 miles I think it's a good idea for me to try out this new oil and see if it makes a difference...

Well, the world is not so simple.

Coupla points:
1) M1 does not have the finest wear rates I have seen. It is consistently good across a wide range of engines. It plays ball with the mfrs by being an SL API oil, but has the lower amounts of AW compounds, and tries to get by on the its base stocks and a phosphorous "replacement" compound. The analyses show that they are not as good as we had hoped. Some companies are keeping Zn, Phos levels high and occasionally including moly. Red Line, Lubrication engineers, and Amsoil are examples.
2) M1 does not make a hi-mileage product, or do they? older cars do have special needs.
3) Oil products vary in effectivity from engine to engine. The Subaru 2.5L is known as a very low wear engine - the WRX even more so. So one would want an oil that perhaps is more shear resistant. Different engines, different needs. I need to study the UOA's of the S2000 more. (I will probably wear oput before my car does).
4) Wallyworld or not, the cost of M1 vs, ML will be 2:1. That is nothing to sneeze at.
5) It really is a waste to have an oil capable of 5-8K regularly (like M1) and then dump it at 5K.

EVERYBODY: I cannot stress the value of UOA; first to get a baseline VOA (virgin oil analysis), then to determine if your OCI (oil change interval) is approrpiate for your car and driving style. The VOA will help any tribologist or talented amateur understand what he or she is getting for their investment.

For example, if the VOA shows >1200 PPM for phos, a coupla hundred PPM for moly, and > 1100 PPM for zinc, high magnesium/calcium levels (detergents, acid buffers), then you have an oil which is likely low wear and capable of going in the 7-12k range OCI.

Some UOA's I have seen:
1) M1 is consistently good, but never spectacularly good
2) Royal Purple is also good, but tends to lose its viscosity very fast. It does not appear to be an EDI (extended drain interval) product, its claims notwithstanding.
3) The 0w40 oils will shear down,. no matter what their base stocks are. Keep your viscosity spread as narrow as conditions permit.
4) GM engines have high copper wear rates.
5) Subaru and Honda seem to make the best engines. Surprise!!!
6) Red Line is above average or higher in nearly all testing, including some cars run very hard. It is always a solid choice.
7) It is always a good idea to change the oil filter at the middle of your OCI, with makeup oil. The insolubles in the oil will be reduced significantly.
8) "Performance" aire filters nearly always produce higher silicon levels in the oil.
9) At about 130k miles, either replace your injectors, or be prepared to lower your OCI. Dirt will eventually damage the pintles, reducing volumetric efficiency and raising fuel dilution of the oil. Even the extended drain oils will become thin.
10) The Camry V6 is the toughest engine on oil i have seen except for...
11) ...the BMW E46!!! This engine is not BMW's finest design.
12) If your car is one those European wonders where they will only change the oil when the computer says so, do your own oil changes. I saw a UOA on a Mercedes at 8843 where the TBN was .43 - it had depleted all its additives, leaving the engine bare naked. Even though the computer did finally catch it, had something one awry (like a bad batch of gas) this engine was set up for some high wear conditions.
13) Although base stocks are important, the additives are more so. UOA's show that using an ester (as much as I like them) but forgoing some AW compounds (like moly) in the process is not giving the protection that the base stocks + the best additives (and forget the API) can offer.

Do you mean "performance" AIR filters?

I'll stick with Mobil 1.

Notify the press!

I ran amsoil 10w30 for a while, but in order to keep my warranty i had to change it at least 7500. I was doing a couple filter changes and changing the oil out around 6-7k. I stopped doing that becuase it was 2 times the cost of mobil 1. I do the same with mobil 1 now but at half the cost of amsoil.

My car has 44k miles on it and 1k or more of track miles and will probably put at least that much on this year. In your opinion should I switch back to the amsoil? keep in mind I change my oil out every other track day or 6k miles (witch 1 filter change in between).
thanks.

IF Amsoil will run more than 7500mi before it's 'depleted', and IF your changing filters midway through your OCI, then why can't you make a "oil change entry" in your log.

Doubt very much that using a high quality syn could be used to deny warranty coverage during its useful life.

Just don't incriminate yourself.

I do all of that and amsoil can handle much longer change intervals then 7500 miles. If push came to shove though I would have to show receipts for more then just filters every 3k miles while letting oil changes go for 10k miles or more. It would be obvious that 5 quarts of amsoil didn't cost $4.95 .

Amsoil will give you good protection for long intervals, but that doesn't mean honda would believe it.

Road Rage,

In your opinion, is Redline the best choice for an S2000 that is driven briskly and ocassionally tracked?

After all I wrote, you ask me that question? I don't give pat answers (often) - I try to give information that a person can use to assess his situation and answer for himself. Aren't you a bit skeptical when you seed a thread that says "What's the best CAI?", and then someone posts "Comptech" or "AEM"? A thinking man knows that a low hung CAI in Houston or Florida is a real fear factor. 1 word answers don't do an adequate service in most cases.

Red Line is very good - Motul is very good - Amsoil is very good - LE is very good - Mobil1 is very good.

The best is the one that provides the best performance for you - is extended drain your priority, lowest wear, price? Read what i posted about UOA - that will tell you whether the oil is meeting your expectations. Some of the recent UOA's on Amsoil show that its TBN is falling off quicker than one would expect it to do, and that is the single factor which affects extended drain capability. Red Line shows consistently good to excellent performance in nearly all makes.

Delvac1 is also excellent, priced nicely, and you can get it in the 5w40 vis which is probably good for you racers and hard street drivers. I may end up using that myself.

I have looked at about 50 UOA's over the last few nights, and did not see many that went much beyond the one year/12K recommendation I have supported and posted for nearly a year here. That recommendation also specifies a filter change at half the interval (time or miles), with the make-up oil raising the TBN by replensihing some of thr additives, and the filter reducing the insolubles in the oil.

Even the oils like Amsoil run with bypass filtration looked to be hammered out in the 12-15k range or less. It may be that they can go further in low revving, low load situations like highway cruising, but "the TBN doesn't lie". Royal purple showed a consistent (and unnerving) tendency to thin out - not consistent with their claims that it provides long OCI's. But it's wear rates looked good to quite good.

Engines affect this more than most people realize. The Subaru engines are particularly "oil friendly". They are made so well, and the bottom ends are so stiff that there is negligible "play". I think the crank on a 2.5L Subie is only 10 inches long, and they have a gazillion bearing bolts. Talk about rigid! The S2000 also has a stiff bottom, an absloute necessity on a high revver.

If you want a choice that is easy to find anywhere, reasonably priced, and designed for "reasonable" OCI's of about 7500 miles, Mobil1 is hard to beat, and is available in a wide range of viscosities. I already stated that 0-30's and 0-40's from anyone will shear down. Stick to the narrowest range that meets your needs.

I cannot possibly answer your questionw ithout a long phone "interview", and I would still tell you to picik an oil, baseline it, and do a UOA regularly.

But if I had a moment of life left, and had to answer, I would say
"Red Line 10w30".

But right now, I am researching LE 8130.



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Completely off-topic:
I changed my oil today at about 850 miles. I went with 4.5 quarts of some Valvoline AC 10w30 I had lying around, and the 15 ozs. of MaxLife Engine Protector. MLEP has plenty of moly and detergents and anti-wear compounds, which you cannot find in an API SL-rated oil. The only oils that have high amounts of either ZDTP and moly are not SL-rated, and also are synthetic, which Honda warns about using too early. Whatz a man to do?

I think i have figured out what Honda does(and several other mfr's do based on UOA's). They know that they must specify an SL oil to extend the life of their catalytic converters, esp. in California, to well beyond the warranty requirements (90K is some cases as I recall). They also know what tribologists know - that the lowered amount of ZDTP in SL oils reduces their efficacy at lowering wear. Since engine life is extended by proper break-in, Honda puts in a special break-in additive that it wants to make sure is in the engine during the first few thousand miles, even if that means that a lot of other crap (from mfg process) will leach into the oil, or there will be sand from casting remains, etc. Those are the things I want to get ouyt of my engine, which is why I like to change out the oil in the 800-1K range.

I have seen a VOA of Honda's factory fill, and it is close enough to MLEP that I doubt if I went to Honda for a warranty claim in the next few months and they decided to run a UOA, that I would be shown to have done a no-no. I also re- painted the black line that the factory techs use to show that the engine is oiled up (a black line running from the drain bolt onto the oil pan).

By adding back the quality additives I know and love, I can do this and also feel confident that I am not losing anything - I will have my cake and eat it too. Now I am not recommending this to everyone - it is my choice, based on what I know. Think for yourself. Perhaps in 10 years I will be posting that I wish I had not done what i did, because of some adverse effect I have found --- but I doubt it.

Are you referering to any E46 3 series (2.5L, 3.0L) or specificially the S54 in the M3?

A 325 is the 2nd car in my garage....

Get up to $2.40 back per quart on 5 quarts of MaxLife(pretty much free).

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/rebates/reb....asp?rebateid=9

Seems legit. Going to buy some tomorrow.

I am sorry I didn't ask in a more informed manner. Let me share with you a little history on the types of engine oils I have used in my S2000. For the 1st 10,000 miles, I was very particular in using the Honda 10W-30 mineral oil that is readily available at most dealerships. I was unhappy with the interval of mileage it would take before the oil broke down. I was changing the oil and filter every ~2500 miles and it was quite black. I used the condition of the oil on the dipstick as my indicator for interval length. For the next 3 oil changes, I switched to Mobil 1 10w-30 synthetic. I noticed my oil consumption was close to 1 quart every 1500 miles. I also noticed a decrease in mpg while using the Mobil 1. At the time, no other modifications were made and all other variables being equal, I deduced the oil was responsible. As it became evident to me, the oils I had used to date were not very fitting for my circumstances. I decided both the filter and oil I was using needed an upgrade. I switched to Redline 10W-30 full synthetic. I noticed a difference in power delivery and a little less chatter in the valvetrain during cold starts. Overall I was pleased with the Redline. The oil consumption was also decreased to 1 quart every 2000-2500 miles. A few friends who have dedicated track cars (Spec Miata) recently switched from Redline 10w-30 to Royal Purple 10w-40. I found it interesting that you have discovered RP to have a shorter life. I was also a little disturbed to read that 10W-40 is more likely to contribute to additional mechanical wear on the engine. Would Amsoil be considered an upgrade to Redline? I have also heard nice things about Neo synthetic oils.

Regarding oil filters I switched to an element that filters down to 8 microns without a bypass. http://www.cmfilters.com/tech.cfm
I have changed the filters after 7500 miles.

The consumption is probably more related to my driving style.

Oil color is not a good gague to the "life" that's left in oil. Oil sample is the only way to tell. On my maxima, I routinely go 10,000 miles on the M1. Although the oil always looks black, the tests from Blackstone always shows that it is still in good condition.

Asura:

Based on your detailed info, I would stick with what is giving you good performance. Red line is always a top drawer recommendation.

I cannot explain why oil consumption went up with M1, but they do formulate at the lower end of the vis specs for a 10w30. But still, it is unusual....
You could try an oil change with the 5w40 Delvac to see if it reduces your oil consupmption further. if it does, you have a "loose" engine and might want to consider using RedLine or Delvac only. The RL maintains a stronger film strength at the ring/cylinder wall interface, reducing blowby (oil consumption) and increasing compression.

The RP thinning has been in enough cars to make it a real issue. I do not believe personally that their products are all they claim to be.

I picked up a case of Valvoline 10w30 MaxLife for my Subie 2.5L Forester and contacted the area LE rep who took my order for a case of LE 8130 10w30 and is looking for a broken case lot to grab a couple quarts of LE 607 90w for me. I have been unable to find the MaxLife engine additive anywhere locally. Folks carry the Valvoline SynPower additive but not the MaxLife.... go figure -

Again my thanks for your excellent and informative posts and responding to my PMs last week.

--Bob

PS The Valvoline web site has rebates for MaxLife right now.

PPS No Pep Boys in South Dakota (re: your comment elsewhere that they were a source for MaxLife additive)

RR....Do you have any experience or an opinion of Marvel Mystery Oil? I did a search and came up blank on this one.