brake pad information thread
09-30-2002, 10:53 AM
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brake pad information thread
I see so many threads about brake pads, wonder what pads to buy, what's good for what type of driving, how are they in the cold, etc. I'd like to collect the knowledge of everyone here about the pads they've used, how they work and how they like them. This way we have all the information in one place and hopefully it will be useful like the alignment thread that krazik started.
09-30-2002, 01:43 PM
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I use Carbotech Panther Plus and am happy with them for both street and track. See www.carbotecheng.com for info.
Are they dusty? Yes. But the dust does not damage alloy wheels (unlike some other pads) and is easy to wipe off with a damp rag.
Are they noisy? Yes. Sometimes they will squeak even when you are off the brakes. But after a day at the track they will be quiet. It seems that a bit of hard usage wears both the pads and rotors a little and greatly reduces or even eliminates noise.
How is their performance? On the street: excellent in all cases, cold, hot, wet and dry, cornering, straights, hills, transitions. No ABS issues what so ever. On the track: factory brakes are inadequately cooled, making it difficult no matter what pads you use. With Panther Plus, this heat does not cause fade (I use Castrol SRF brake fluid), but it does cause relatively high pad wear rates and rotor cracking due to heat cycling. Also, the front inner pad backing plates will bend occasionally and the outer brake piston rubber seals will melt due to heating.
Are they hard on rotors? No. For track driving, the rotors crack due to heat cycling long before they wear due to pad friction. The pads do have rivets, but wearing the pads down to the rivets does not seem to damage the rotors. I have worn them down all the way to the backing plate with no significant rotor wear damage.
How long do they last? On the track: 1 to 2 track days. On the street: I don't know, mine wear out on the track, probably months or years if you never track.
Are they dusty? Yes. But the dust does not damage alloy wheels (unlike some other pads) and is easy to wipe off with a damp rag.
Are they noisy? Yes. Sometimes they will squeak even when you are off the brakes. But after a day at the track they will be quiet. It seems that a bit of hard usage wears both the pads and rotors a little and greatly reduces or even eliminates noise.
How is their performance? On the street: excellent in all cases, cold, hot, wet and dry, cornering, straights, hills, transitions. No ABS issues what so ever. On the track: factory brakes are inadequately cooled, making it difficult no matter what pads you use. With Panther Plus, this heat does not cause fade (I use Castrol SRF brake fluid), but it does cause relatively high pad wear rates and rotor cracking due to heat cycling. Also, the front inner pad backing plates will bend occasionally and the outer brake piston rubber seals will melt due to heating.
Are they hard on rotors? No. For track driving, the rotors crack due to heat cycling long before they wear due to pad friction. The pads do have rivets, but wearing the pads down to the rivets does not seem to damage the rotors. I have worn them down all the way to the backing plate with no significant rotor wear damage.
How long do they last? On the track: 1 to 2 track days. On the street: I don't know, mine wear out on the track, probably months or years if you never track.
09-30-2002, 02:38 PM
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With 49,000 miles I'm about halfway through my original stock pads. They work great on the street, and have shouldered most of my (extensive) autocross duty.
For the track I started with Porterfield R4S. They were fine for my beginning track outings, especially when I was on street tires. By my 4th track day in Pahrump, Nevada (>90 degrees ambient) with A032R rubber I felt I had exceeded the capabilites of the R4S.
The next day, same conditions, I ran Porterfield R4, and was quite pleased. The car sounds like a bus slowing down (at first I thought I must've put a pad in backwards), but braking is always strong, consistent, and reliable. First set of R4 lasted that day at Pahrump and 1.5 days at Thunderhill. Braking was consistent down to pad thickness less than a dime; I had no idea they were already that far gone. As for performance, I feel braking is one place where I make up a lot of time - I've often been able to hang with guys that have more power and/or tire because of later, harder braking.
The R4 is loud and doesn't work super-well when cold but they'll still slow you down. I guess they're pretty hard on rotors too, but not crazy bad. I'll keep using the stock pads for street/autox and swap in the R4 for the journey to the track.
I get all my brakes through Ben at Bulletproof. He always gets 'em to me quickly and at a good price.
Oh, and ATE Superblue or Motul RBF600 fluid gets the job done just fine.
For the track I started with Porterfield R4S. They were fine for my beginning track outings, especially when I was on street tires. By my 4th track day in Pahrump, Nevada (>90 degrees ambient) with A032R rubber I felt I had exceeded the capabilites of the R4S.
The next day, same conditions, I ran Porterfield R4, and was quite pleased. The car sounds like a bus slowing down (at first I thought I must've put a pad in backwards), but braking is always strong, consistent, and reliable. First set of R4 lasted that day at Pahrump and 1.5 days at Thunderhill. Braking was consistent down to pad thickness less than a dime; I had no idea they were already that far gone. As for performance, I feel braking is one place where I make up a lot of time - I've often been able to hang with guys that have more power and/or tire because of later, harder braking.
The R4 is loud and doesn't work super-well when cold but they'll still slow you down. I guess they're pretty hard on rotors too, but not crazy bad. I'll keep using the stock pads for street/autox and swap in the R4 for the journey to the track.
I get all my brakes through Ben at Bulletproof. He always gets 'em to me quickly and at a good price.
Oh, and ATE Superblue or Motul RBF600 fluid gets the job done just fine.
10-01-2002, 11:37 AM
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Great thread!
With Porterfield R4 or Carbotech XP (both full track pads) has anyone had problems cracking their OEM rotors because of the incredible heat the pads can stand up to?
I just finished my 1st school with the S2000 at Watkins Glen. I was not able to get performance pads in time and I was able to go through a pair of OEM fronts in about 1 hour. The OEM rears took about 3 hours before they were consumed. I took extra pads because of this and had a blast. I was very impressed with the OEM set up and it's ability to run for 30 minutes straight and still give good pedal feel.
Now I would like to try the R4 or XP but am curious about OEM rotors. I always used to run Hawk Blues on my CRX-Si and they would put small stress cracks in the rotors but never big enough to cause cracks.
With Porterfield R4 or Carbotech XP (both full track pads) has anyone had problems cracking their OEM rotors because of the incredible heat the pads can stand up to?
I just finished my 1st school with the S2000 at Watkins Glen. I was not able to get performance pads in time and I was able to go through a pair of OEM fronts in about 1 hour. The OEM rears took about 3 hours before they were consumed. I took extra pads because of this and had a blast. I was very impressed with the OEM set up and it's ability to run for 30 minutes straight and still give good pedal feel.
Now I would like to try the R4 or XP but am curious about OEM rotors. I always used to run Hawk Blues on my CRX-Si and they would put small stress cracks in the rotors but never big enough to cause cracks.
10-01-2002, 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Mike Schuster
... but it [Panther Plus] does cause relatively high pad wear rates and rotor cracking due to heat cycling. Also, the front inner pad backing plates will bend occasionally and the outer brake piston rubber seals will melt due to heating.
... but it [Panther Plus] does cause relatively high pad wear rates and rotor cracking due to heat cycling. Also, the front inner pad backing plates will bend occasionally and the outer brake piston rubber seals will melt due to heating.
On the street and for auto-x, I use R-4S pads which do great for me.
BTW, I use stock tires for track, auto-x, and street.
10-01-2002, 12:57 PM
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I used the stock pads (and fluid) for my first couple of track days, and they worked reasonably well since I wasn't going very fast. It did get to the point where the pads glazed (and the fluid boiled), resulting in much higher pedal pressure needed and spongy pedal feel.
I switched to Porterfield R4-S pads (and ATE SuperBlue/Motul RBF 600 fluid) for track and street. I ran them for ~13,000 miles and 6 track days, the first four on OEM tires, the last two on Toyo RA-1s. I never had any problems with them (some have reported crumbling). They do squeak a bit and make a fair amount of dust. When I took them off, they still had some life left in them.
Next I tried the BrakeMan #3 pads. I had them on for ~5000 miles and 4 track days, all on the RA-1s. Like the R4-S, they worked great on the track and street, with some squeaking, and about the same amount of dust as the R4-S, although a little easier to wash off. I completely wore through the #3s at that fourth track day, though.
Now I'm going to try the Panther Plus, and use the stock pads for the street.
I also plan to do some sort of brake ducting/cooling mod over the winter, which may help with pad life.
Ted
I switched to Porterfield R4-S pads (and ATE SuperBlue/Motul RBF 600 fluid) for track and street. I ran them for ~13,000 miles and 6 track days, the first four on OEM tires, the last two on Toyo RA-1s. I never had any problems with them (some have reported crumbling). They do squeak a bit and make a fair amount of dust. When I took them off, they still had some life left in them.
Next I tried the BrakeMan #3 pads. I had them on for ~5000 miles and 4 track days, all on the RA-1s. Like the R4-S, they worked great on the track and street, with some squeaking, and about the same amount of dust as the R4-S, although a little easier to wash off. I completely wore through the #3s at that fourth track day, though.
Now I'm going to try the Panther Plus, and use the stock pads for the street.
I also plan to do some sort of brake ducting/cooling mod over the winter, which may help with pad life.
Ted
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10-01-2002, 01:13 PM
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one thing i like about the #3s is the pad feel is the same from new pad all the way until you get to the backing plate. great for track use, just keep an eye on the pad wear.
10-01-2002, 06:21 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Triple-H
[B]Now I would like to try the R4 or XP but am curious about OEM rotors. I always used to run Hawk Blues on my CRX-Si and they would put small
[B]Now I would like to try the R4 or XP but am curious about OEM rotors. I always used to run Hawk Blues on my CRX-Si and they would put small