My S2000 suspension thread
12-13-2016, 06:51 PM
#21
Thank you B Serious for the research. Miata's have similar weak point of limited rear shock travel....especially with aftermarket coilovers. A couple of miata vendors have optimized shock body length for maximum travel without adjustable length shock bodies and great results. Looks like in the S2K world we have to do it ourselves.
Last edited by lookstoomuch; 12-13-2016 at 07:02 PM.
12-14-2016, 12:55 AM
#22
Please don't shoot me down in flames, but I am interested to know why the obsession with lower ride height? Does it actually provide measurable handling improvements? I have just received my Ohlins and opted for the (Eibach) 10k (actually550lb) rears and have set them to SKB's recommended 10mm preload (203mm claimed and actual measured length) then preloaded to 193mm.
They aren't fitted to car yet, as I am trying to decide what ride height to set the car to. I know that with the preload it will limit how low I can go, but I am interested in handling over looks, so would love a discussion as to the ACTUAL benefits of lowering the S2000 and what the optimum is. I would quite happily run standard height if this is what gives the best handling. On the cars that I am used to modifying, you can't lower them too much as doing so puts the roll-centre underground on the front and then causes all sorts of issues with the front to rear disparity (crappy Macpherson strut front and independent semi-trailing arm rear suspension). Obviously with the S2000 having double wishbones all round, it won't have such issues, but still, there must be an "optimum" setting?
On the fronts I measured the Ohlins 10k springs at the same length as the Eibachs at 203mm and set the preload to 3mm giving a compressed length of 200mm. I did this because I noted from both Noodels and B Serious that the Ohlins springs seem to suffer from some sag after time, as both of them have measured their springs at between 198-200mm after measuring them once they had been on car for some time. Part of the reason for choosing the Eibach springs is that part of their claim is to have the lowest "sag" on the market, so hopefully the rears won't have the same issue.
They aren't fitted to car yet, as I am trying to decide what ride height to set the car to. I know that with the preload it will limit how low I can go, but I am interested in handling over looks, so would love a discussion as to the ACTUAL benefits of lowering the S2000 and what the optimum is. I would quite happily run standard height if this is what gives the best handling. On the cars that I am used to modifying, you can't lower them too much as doing so puts the roll-centre underground on the front and then causes all sorts of issues with the front to rear disparity (crappy Macpherson strut front and independent semi-trailing arm rear suspension). Obviously with the S2000 having double wishbones all round, it won't have such issues, but still, there must be an "optimum" setting?
On the fronts I measured the Ohlins 10k springs at the same length as the Eibachs at 203mm and set the preload to 3mm giving a compressed length of 200mm. I did this because I noted from both Noodels and B Serious that the Ohlins springs seem to suffer from some sag after time, as both of them have measured their springs at between 198-200mm after measuring them once they had been on car for some time. Part of the reason for choosing the Eibach springs is that part of their claim is to have the lowest "sag" on the market, so hopefully the rears won't have the same issue.
12-14-2016, 04:40 AM
#23
Thread Starter
^My springs haven't sagged. I measured 200mm after taking them out. But...its not uncommon for some sag to happen in the first 1k miles or so.
My ride height is just based on personal preference. I am sure there is a ride height that is scientifically proven to be faster based on roll center location, etc. And I know you can modify roll center position via RCA's.
If I was participating in an activity that required me to get the edge on the best handling I possibly could...then I would investigate the means to reach that route, and those factors would dictate what I did to the car.
But I don't use the car for anything that serious.
I (sucessfully) use my car for HPDE's and time trials quite often. And I pretty much DD it in summer. I like the way it looks at its current height at the current time, in my mind's eye.
So at this moment, the only thing missing from my "perfect car" equation is ride quality. I want to gain travel for that purpose primarily. But...I don't want to raise the car because of looks.
My ride height is just based on personal preference. I am sure there is a ride height that is scientifically proven to be faster based on roll center location, etc. And I know you can modify roll center position via RCA's.
If I was participating in an activity that required me to get the edge on the best handling I possibly could...then I would investigate the means to reach that route, and those factors would dictate what I did to the car.
But I don't use the car for anything that serious.
I (sucessfully) use my car for HPDE's and time trials quite often. And I pretty much DD it in summer. I like the way it looks at its current height at the current time, in my mind's eye.
So at this moment, the only thing missing from my "perfect car" equation is ride quality. I want to gain travel for that purpose primarily. But...I don't want to raise the car because of looks.
Last edited by B serious; 12-14-2016 at 12:30 PM.
12-14-2016, 04:46 AM
#24
Thread Starter
Thank you B Serious for the research. Miata's have similar weak point of limited rear shock travel....especially with aftermarket coilovers. A couple of miata vendors have optimized shock body length for maximum travel without adjustable length shock bodies and great results. Looks like in the S2K world we have to do it ourselves.
No problem! SBG has done a lot of great research on raw data as well.
I will credit them for being one of the few vendors whom I didn't see claiming that the Öhlins would cure any void in your life as-supplied, and that if you aren't on the Öhlins DFV, you are primitive and weak.
12-14-2016, 09:06 AM
#25
No problem! SBG has done a lot of great research on raw data as well.
I will credit them for being one of the few vendors whom I didn't see claiming that the Öhlins would cure any void in your life as-supplied, and that if you aren't on the Öhlins DFV, you are primitive and weak.
I will credit them for being one of the few vendors whom I didn't see claiming that the Öhlins would cure any void in your life as-supplied, and that if you aren't on the Öhlins DFV, you are primitive and weak.
__________________
SAKEBOMB GARAGE > Click here to contact Us
Check some of our most popular products for the S2000:
- Ohlins DFV Billet Lower Mount
- Rear BBK RX-8 Caliper Conversion
- Front BBK AP Competition
- Setrab Oil Cooler Kit
SAKEBOMB GARAGE > Click here to contact Us
Check some of our most popular products for the S2000:
- Ohlins DFV Billet Lower Mount
- Rear BBK RX-8 Caliper Conversion
- Front BBK AP Competition
- Setrab Oil Cooler Kit
12-14-2016, 12:28 PM
#26
Thread Starter
We just want to make sure we get the most possible performance out of any parts we put on our cars. The Öhlins are absolutely fantastic dampers but it doesn't make sense to spend $2000 on an upgrade and then not try to squeeze every last drop of performance out of them.
I credit Gernby's DFV setup thread to bringing the travel issue to the surface in the first place. Though...he used total corner weight to determine his preload, and then set his initial preload after installing into the car. Which then lead to me making my own boneheaded errors in that thread lol.
Right place, right time, though. At the R&T (with DFV) original price of $2400, it would have been difficult for ANY vendor to admit they required a different (additional) rear mount for lower ride heights.
I feel you guys were the first VENDORS in the S2000 community to address that they have limitations in stock form, with the supplied settings. The research you all have done as related to this issue can translate into other suspension setups as well.
Anyway...
I haven't tried them with increased travel. So at the moment, I can't comment on whether or not all this will improve them. A strong hypothesis is that it will improve the ride and handling.
I'm excited to find out!
12-14-2016, 04:29 PM
#27
I am curious at what amount of compression travel and at what ride height and spring rate will people end up with wheel travel issues, and end up with the tire coming into contact with the body.
As I have mentioned many times, the DFVs are much better suited to use 10kg springs in the rear. I don't think with more preload and compression travel with 8kg rear springs you will see different results over large freeway bumps at high speeds that send the rear of the car upward. While you can adjust the damper travel you aren't going to change the amount of wheel travel available with different lower mounts and more preload. The wheelbase of the car has a lot to do with how it reacts over certain size dips and bumps. And when the amount of wheel travel is reduced with lower ride height, this is going to happen no matter how good the dampers. Bottom line is you can't get the same amount of wheel travel on a lowered car as you can with a higher ride height. If you had the same travel before the bump stop, your tire hitting the body would be your new bump stop.
I will continue to push people to adjusting the geometry with roll center adjustment and slightly stiffer springs. I honestly even thing people with staggered tires would be better off swapping the springs around with 8kg front and 10kg rear. But maybe i am crazy.
I will continue to push people to adjusting the geometry with roll center adjustment and slightly stiffer springs. I honestly even thing people with staggered tires would be better off swapping the springs around with 8kg front and 10kg rear. But maybe i am crazy.
I learned from my konis that stiffer rear springs actually improved the ride. Softer springs suffered from rate spike when they hit the bumpstop. To get control back I had to up the rebound damping. It just never felt right. Stiffer springs with less damping offered better ride and control. Big hits would still bounce the rear but the problem was 90% solved. Like you said, there is only so much you can do with less travel.
12-14-2016, 05:05 PM
#28
Yep, just ordered some 10k rear springs for mine.
I learned from my konis that stiffer rear springs actually improved the ride. Softer springs suffered from rate spike when they hit the bumpstop. To get control back I had to up the rebound damping. It just never felt right. Stiffer springs with less damping offered better ride and control. Big hits would still bounce the rear but the problem was 90% solved. Like you said, there is only so much you can do with less travel.
I learned from my konis that stiffer rear springs actually improved the ride. Softer springs suffered from rate spike when they hit the bumpstop. To get control back I had to up the rebound damping. It just never felt right. Stiffer springs with less damping offered better ride and control. Big hits would still bounce the rear but the problem was 90% solved. Like you said, there is only so much you can do with less travel.
). I haven't tossed them on yet but have 9-10mm preload and bottomed out mounts. LMK where you set yours up and what it gets you. I think those settings will get me close to where I want to be, but just want to be sure I don't need the SBG lower mounts. For the record your preload is contact contact with the spring = 0 and then 10mm from there correct?
12-14-2016, 05:09 PM
#29
Thread Starter
I will likely do the mounts first. If I buy 10K springs, I'll still need the mounts to get the car at the height that I want.
Anyone know what 10K rear springs would do to the lifespan of these dampers? I know (hope) that their recommendation of 20K mile rebuilds is a farce.
Someone posted in another thread that they recieved an email from Öhlins saying that if they're driven primarily in good climates, for road use, they may be able to do 40K before a rebuild.
If they really do require 20K mile rebuilds ($1k), I will probably get rid of them for something else.
Anyone know what 10K rear springs would do to the lifespan of these dampers? I know (hope) that their recommendation of 20K mile rebuilds is a farce.
Someone posted in another thread that they recieved an email from Öhlins saying that if they're driven primarily in good climates, for road use, they may be able to do 40K before a rebuild.
If they really do require 20K mile rebuilds ($1k), I will probably get rid of them for something else.
12-14-2016, 05:27 PM
#30
I doubt 10k springs will change anything with respect to lifespan. If anything it might improve lifespan. I read a discussion on the Miata board and it seems the recommendation is based on 100% optimal performance and is conservative. Some guys had 50-60k and no issues. The thought seemed to be that even at 95% most couldn't tell the change in performance