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AP1/2 Sub Frame Rigid Collar Kit
07-09-2011, 08:07 AM
#21
Registered User
Originally Posted by SgtB' timestamp='1309837429' post='20746417
You want that gap. The subframe and frame aren't perfect, and the wider holes let everything sit without being loaded. Their unevenness example is ridiculous as well. There is no way the parts are ever that crooked. If you look at the contact area of the two parts,and the fact that there are six rather large bolts, I think it's a gimmick. They're argument is that everything gets loose. Collars aren't the answer. A torque wrench and new bolts are, and even that is pretty far fetched.
There is no way a properly torqued subframe is moving at all once installed.
@takchi: Imagine if you did wreck, and the subframe shifted. imagine how mangled those collars would be. It would be fun prying them out!
07-09-2011, 05:28 PM
#22
Registered User
Originally Posted by BerlinaMOBster' timestamp='1310132631' post='20759181
[quote name='SgtB' timestamp='1309837429' post='20746417']
You want that gap. The subframe and frame aren't perfect, and the wider holes let everything sit without being loaded. Their unevenness example is ridiculous as well. There is no way the parts are ever that crooked. If you look at the contact area of the two parts,and the fact that there are six rather large bolts, I think it's a gimmick. They're argument is that everything gets loose. Collars aren't the answer. A torque wrench and new bolts are, and even that is pretty far fetched.
You want that gap. The subframe and frame aren't perfect, and the wider holes let everything sit without being loaded. Their unevenness example is ridiculous as well. There is no way the parts are ever that crooked. If you look at the contact area of the two parts,and the fact that there are six rather large bolts, I think it's a gimmick. They're argument is that everything gets loose. Collars aren't the answer. A torque wrench and new bolts are, and even that is pretty far fetched.
There is no way a properly torqued subframe is moving at all once installed.
@takchi: Imagine if you did wreck, and the subframe shifted. imagine how mangled those collars would be. It would be fun prying them out!
[/quote]
I think prying out those collars would be the least of your worries if you got into a wreck. I mean how many people would say, "NUUU my Spoon Rigid Collars!" after a nasty wreck, especially if the wreck is bad enough to shift the subframe quite a bit? I'd say that's pretty much frame damage at that point, which is hovering fairly close to the "Totaled" status.
Well as I said, it's up to you to install them. It's purely personal preference at this point.
08-14-2011, 02:45 PM
#23
I totally agreed with all of you!,
The subframe and main chasis have certain specification th AP1/Ap2 vehicle must meet. Regulatory approvals from world markets, ie
CSA NIS JSA DIN etc. The have to meet certain impact, stiffness, and other mechanical requirements prior for the vehicle to proceed with
manufacturing. the subframe bolts used are able to hold up to approximately 2300 lbs of tensile force each, yes each. now there if there are 4 bolts, that means the total rated tensile strength of holding subframe to chasis is approximately 9200 effective strength
these bolts can hold, the chance of a subframe shifting and changing alignment is virtually downright near impossible, unless it
came from a source of great impact, MAYBE then the subframe may actually shift.
Dont forget, once the bolts have been threaded and locked between frame and subframe, there is a "sinking" effect, where the bolts
and washers will actually "press" into the frame metal, hence is where you see the washer indented into the frame / subframe
metal.
ALL mechanical engineering and NTA, JIS, CSA government of transportation etc. branches have rigorous tests to ensure virtually
absolute zero deflection of frame intersecting components upto a specification of 0.0001".
these bolts already achieve the rigidness already offered by the rigid collar kit, infact, the rigid collar kit will
change, yes change the micro alignment of the frame itself, not a problem in very low speeds, but the faster velocity the vehicle is moving, the more amplified good tuning / poor tuning will be realized.
The rigid collar kit is NOT worth the value it provides, it simply provides mechanical presence and compromises the thread locking
strength. Honda uses these threaded high grade steel bolts for single entry engagement, meaning one time and held all time once engaged into bolt.
Don't mess with whats already been engineered exteremely well. This product video is showing an extreme example of subframe / frame
deflection. TOTALLY not true.
If you'd like to have higher stiffness, just use JBWELD and cold seam weld interfacing sections of the structural frame,
it's like putting extra glue into your wooden model frame, now the weak parts are not necessarily the glue, rather the wood itself.
END ADVICE DON'T BUY THE RIGID COLLAR KIT.
The subframe and main chasis have certain specification th AP1/Ap2 vehicle must meet. Regulatory approvals from world markets, ie
CSA NIS JSA DIN etc. The have to meet certain impact, stiffness, and other mechanical requirements prior for the vehicle to proceed with
manufacturing. the subframe bolts used are able to hold up to approximately 2300 lbs of tensile force each, yes each. now there if there are 4 bolts, that means the total rated tensile strength of holding subframe to chasis is approximately 9200 effective strength
these bolts can hold, the chance of a subframe shifting and changing alignment is virtually downright near impossible, unless it
came from a source of great impact, MAYBE then the subframe may actually shift.
Dont forget, once the bolts have been threaded and locked between frame and subframe, there is a "sinking" effect, where the bolts
and washers will actually "press" into the frame metal, hence is where you see the washer indented into the frame / subframe
metal.
ALL mechanical engineering and NTA, JIS, CSA government of transportation etc. branches have rigorous tests to ensure virtually
absolute zero deflection of frame intersecting components upto a specification of 0.0001".
these bolts already achieve the rigidness already offered by the rigid collar kit, infact, the rigid collar kit will
change, yes change the micro alignment of the frame itself, not a problem in very low speeds, but the faster velocity the vehicle is moving, the more amplified good tuning / poor tuning will be realized.
The rigid collar kit is NOT worth the value it provides, it simply provides mechanical presence and compromises the thread locking
strength. Honda uses these threaded high grade steel bolts for single entry engagement, meaning one time and held all time once engaged into bolt.
Don't mess with whats already been engineered exteremely well. This product video is showing an extreme example of subframe / frame
deflection. TOTALLY not true.
If you'd like to have higher stiffness, just use JBWELD and cold seam weld interfacing sections of the structural frame,
it's like putting extra glue into your wooden model frame, now the weak parts are not necessarily the glue, rather the wood itself.
END ADVICE DON'T BUY THE RIGID COLLAR KIT.
09-06-2011, 09:32 PM
#24
I installed these on my friends car and there was a slightly noticeable improvement over bumps. Before we could go to the track with them in we also installed a roll cage so I can't say if they really affected the feel of the car on the track.
09-07-2011, 04:54 AM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Notice in the video the car used as an example was a Prius whose main suspension objective is not handling but ride comfort and noise supression. For a car like the S2K whose main forte is handling I'm sure the suspension engineers didn't compromise to the extent the Prisu guys did. What I'm saying is I doubt the end improvement when applied to the S2K would be as great or as noticeable.
09-13-2011, 10:34 AM
#27
I think this is a good mod.
You can't even discuss this is if you've never done a clutch change yourself.
There is no way to bolt the subframe back into the way it was. It will be off by a few mm no matter how mad your skills are. This in turn will shift your alignment to one side. You will be able to correct it but will your geometry be perfect? Debatable. If you're a perfectionist, any little part that brings +/- error closer to ideal will make you happy. This part is for those people.
You can't even discuss this is if you've never done a clutch change yourself.
There is no way to bolt the subframe back into the way it was. It will be off by a few mm no matter how mad your skills are. This in turn will shift your alignment to one side. You will be able to correct it but will your geometry be perfect? Debatable. If you're a perfectionist, any little part that brings +/- error closer to ideal will make you happy. This part is for those people.
04-18-2012, 05:49 AM
#28
You want that gap. The subframe and frame aren't perfect, and the wider holes let everything sit without being loaded. Their unevenness example is ridiculous as well. There is no way the parts are ever that crooked. If you look at the contact area of the two parts,and the fact that there are six rather large bolts, I think it's a gimmick. They're argument is that everything gets loose. Collars aren't the answer. A torque wrench and new bolts are, and even that is pretty far fetched.
The subframe being misaligned can affect handling even with a "proper" alignment since some things can't be adjusted and only have a "range".
ANYWAYS, they made a night and day difference on my civic si. My car stopped pulling to the right for seemingly no reason even with a perfectly acceptable alignment spec and is more compliant over bumps just like it shows.
They have 2 effects.
1.) fills in the gap the bolts have that allow subframe play
2.) the crush washer portion mimics welding the subframe to the chassis
They're definitely worth it on a civic si. I dunno about an s2000, but it was noticable on my car.
to the guy talking about deflection of metal and sinking effect on the stock subframe. I can agree there, but just looking at my subframe which has been dropped 2 or 3 times, there are multiple different spots you can see that it has been installed in.
05-09-2012, 06:49 PM
#29
I think this is a good mod.You can't even discuss this is if you've never done a clutch change yourself.There is no way to bolt the subframe back into the way it was. It will be off by a few mm no matter how mad your skills are. This in turn will shift your alignment to one side. You will be able to correct it but will your geometry be perfect? Debatable. If you're a perfectionist, any little part that brings +/- error closer to ideal will make you happy. This part is for those people.