Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-21-2014, 12:32 AM
#1
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Urge / Endyn engine failure
I don't normally post this type of post, but feel I need to share it. I bought an Urge GT engine for my S2000 race car, which I race in the UK. I ran a standard engine for 2 full seasons but wanted a power upgrade and this became available. It cost around $17k to the original buyer, plus donor engine, and about 1 year to build. I bought it from him shortly before it was shipped to the UK by Urge.
We installed it here with no other changes as it was a crate engine ready to drop in. The engine made very good power (270 atw) at the advised 9500 rpm limit when finally mapped (we had to change the AEM V2 to a 3.5" intake to get full power) but it has suffered a main bearing failure the first time I raced it in June. Qualifying was no problems, but it lost oil pressure during the race at Silverstone and I immediately retired it mid race when I saw the pressure alarm drop instantly to sub 10 psi. It lasted approximately 50 miles / 2 hours total use max including approx 15 dyno mapping pulls.
A sump inspection post dyno run / shipping by Urge was requested but this was not done. Initial thoughts when we saw the sump were oil starvation, but after full inspection here it shows the main bearings are destroyed due to fatigue. We had the guy who does bearing analysis for Mahle F1 look at them and he was shocked. My engine builder hasnt seen bearings this bad from fatigue. The head appears to be fine though which is good (I caught this very quickly) Main findings are below.
- Cracked Urge intake manifold on runner 1 (looks like it's had a previous repair)
- All main bearings destroyed due to fatigue, predominantly on one side
- Rod bearings in ok condition
- Crank requires replacement
- Head gasket has shown signs of initial leakage
- New oil pump required
Pistons and rod bearings are fine so no signs of det. Det wouldn't hurt the main bearings anyway. There are no signs of heat damage or oil starvation. No over rev (would show on the valve train) My engine builder susepcted the crank was to blame as it has been heavily shaved on the counterweight side only. Comments are as follows:
'With Hondas the main bearings are much bigger than the big ends so with lack of oil they always destroys the big ends with only shining on the mains. With yours the mains are completely destroyed and the big ends are relatively untouched. Also with lack of oil you have metal to metal contact which results in heat build-up and radial scores as the crank turns. There is no signs of heat build-up and virtual no scoring. The bearings are completely ruined with the layers breaking off in pieces which shows massive fatigue overloading.( see pic ) The bearings are standard Honda and very good quality good for 700bhp +
This engine is destroyed because the crank has been put in a lathe and had the counter weights thinned down whilst removing next to no weight from the big ends. This results in it being massively under counter weighed. On a inline 4 the counter weight should be the same as the rotating portion of the rods plus half the reciprocating weight (the rest of the con rod plus the piston) so as the crank spins the two forces cancel each other out and the crank spins in the middle of the bearing.
Your engine is virtually standard weight on the big end side but massively lighter on the counterweight side so as it spins the force of the big ends (which increases with the square of engine speed) overcomes the force of the counter weight and effectively the crank goes round like a skipping rope. Proof of this is clear if you look at the centre main bearing of the crank which is destroyed on one side (the heavy big end side) and virtually unmarked on the other. If you couple this with the fact there seems to be no balance marks anywhere the forces are potentially massive.
Moving on to the rest of the engine there are signs of the head gasket going between cylinders. Head, cams and oem parts all look good.
Total crank balance is 318gmm @ 27 degrees (TDC on cylinder 1 is 0 degrees) As reference a Honda crank is usually around 100 and we would like to see <25. The crank balance alone would not cause the bearing to be damaged as in your engine, although it would cause some wear. The issue is that crank is massively under counter weighted (the situation is made worse by the rods which are heavy at around OEM weight) and this loads up the mains hence the one sided wear. The situation in your engine is so acute because the in-balance acts as the exciter force hence the destroyed bearings. The long and short of it is improve the counter weight situation and balance the whole assemble and you will not have any issues."
He specifically has stated that this would not have happened with a standard unmodified crank and would never modify a stanadard crank. I guess removing 5 lbs+ from the counteweight side and barely anything from the other, and using 670g rods similar to OEM weight will do that with a 9500 redline. The vibration is probably what cracked the intake (which had already been repaired prior to it being delivered)
Regardless of theories on the failure, this shouldn't have happened and i'd hold my hands up if i'd over revved it or starved it of oil but the findings are clear. All i've done is install, map, and drive it.
Anyway, rebuild will be with a standard AP2 crank, component balance the whole rotating assembly and all should be good. OEM crank pulley will be used in place of the fluidamper. 8500 rev limit will be used. Hopefully it is possible to get some sort of repair done. Main issue now is the head has been skimmed heavily so a 5 layer Cometic gasket has been used, and these do not seal well so will always be prone to leak (and already has) I am told and my engine builder has a lot of experience with them. Not much can be done there. Proof will be in the rebuild.
The repair bill is looking like £3000 ($5000) for new crank / bearing / pump / gasket / rebuild, plus engine removal / reinstall costs, shipping costs, mapping costs, and potential lost race fees as financially I think my season is over. Urge have asked for the engine back to inspect, which of course they have a right to, to give a fair assessment but after asking if I would be covered financially for sending it their and back and for the repair, the conversation wen't downhill and fingers got pointed on both sides, hence I felt I had to get it checked here in the UK. They are refusing to accept the theory this can be caused by the crank and have been unapologetic.
Note that the Urge warranty page has conveniently been updated since my failure, in recent weeks. I wasn't warned about any of this until now and its why I have no comeback apparently. If you are currenty looking at an Urge engine I'd pay close attention to these difficult conditions. if you are buying any engine, I can't find any builder who will modify an OEM crank.
http://www.urgedesigns.com/contact.html
Pics.
(Head cover came unpainted)
We installed it here with no other changes as it was a crate engine ready to drop in. The engine made very good power (270 atw) at the advised 9500 rpm limit when finally mapped (we had to change the AEM V2 to a 3.5" intake to get full power) but it has suffered a main bearing failure the first time I raced it in June. Qualifying was no problems, but it lost oil pressure during the race at Silverstone and I immediately retired it mid race when I saw the pressure alarm drop instantly to sub 10 psi. It lasted approximately 50 miles / 2 hours total use max including approx 15 dyno mapping pulls.
A sump inspection post dyno run / shipping by Urge was requested but this was not done. Initial thoughts when we saw the sump were oil starvation, but after full inspection here it shows the main bearings are destroyed due to fatigue. We had the guy who does bearing analysis for Mahle F1 look at them and he was shocked. My engine builder hasnt seen bearings this bad from fatigue. The head appears to be fine though which is good (I caught this very quickly) Main findings are below.
- Cracked Urge intake manifold on runner 1 (looks like it's had a previous repair)
- All main bearings destroyed due to fatigue, predominantly on one side
- Rod bearings in ok condition
- Crank requires replacement
- Head gasket has shown signs of initial leakage
- New oil pump required
Pistons and rod bearings are fine so no signs of det. Det wouldn't hurt the main bearings anyway. There are no signs of heat damage or oil starvation. No over rev (would show on the valve train) My engine builder susepcted the crank was to blame as it has been heavily shaved on the counterweight side only. Comments are as follows:
'With Hondas the main bearings are much bigger than the big ends so with lack of oil they always destroys the big ends with only shining on the mains. With yours the mains are completely destroyed and the big ends are relatively untouched. Also with lack of oil you have metal to metal contact which results in heat build-up and radial scores as the crank turns. There is no signs of heat build-up and virtual no scoring. The bearings are completely ruined with the layers breaking off in pieces which shows massive fatigue overloading.( see pic ) The bearings are standard Honda and very good quality good for 700bhp +
This engine is destroyed because the crank has been put in a lathe and had the counter weights thinned down whilst removing next to no weight from the big ends. This results in it being massively under counter weighed. On a inline 4 the counter weight should be the same as the rotating portion of the rods plus half the reciprocating weight (the rest of the con rod plus the piston) so as the crank spins the two forces cancel each other out and the crank spins in the middle of the bearing.
Your engine is virtually standard weight on the big end side but massively lighter on the counterweight side so as it spins the force of the big ends (which increases with the square of engine speed) overcomes the force of the counter weight and effectively the crank goes round like a skipping rope. Proof of this is clear if you look at the centre main bearing of the crank which is destroyed on one side (the heavy big end side) and virtually unmarked on the other. If you couple this with the fact there seems to be no balance marks anywhere the forces are potentially massive.
Moving on to the rest of the engine there are signs of the head gasket going between cylinders. Head, cams and oem parts all look good.
Total crank balance is 318gmm @ 27 degrees (TDC on cylinder 1 is 0 degrees) As reference a Honda crank is usually around 100 and we would like to see <25. The crank balance alone would not cause the bearing to be damaged as in your engine, although it would cause some wear. The issue is that crank is massively under counter weighted (the situation is made worse by the rods which are heavy at around OEM weight) and this loads up the mains hence the one sided wear. The situation in your engine is so acute because the in-balance acts as the exciter force hence the destroyed bearings. The long and short of it is improve the counter weight situation and balance the whole assemble and you will not have any issues."
He specifically has stated that this would not have happened with a standard unmodified crank and would never modify a stanadard crank. I guess removing 5 lbs+ from the counteweight side and barely anything from the other, and using 670g rods similar to OEM weight will do that with a 9500 redline. The vibration is probably what cracked the intake (which had already been repaired prior to it being delivered)
Regardless of theories on the failure, this shouldn't have happened and i'd hold my hands up if i'd over revved it or starved it of oil but the findings are clear. All i've done is install, map, and drive it.
Anyway, rebuild will be with a standard AP2 crank, component balance the whole rotating assembly and all should be good. OEM crank pulley will be used in place of the fluidamper. 8500 rev limit will be used. Hopefully it is possible to get some sort of repair done. Main issue now is the head has been skimmed heavily so a 5 layer Cometic gasket has been used, and these do not seal well so will always be prone to leak (and already has) I am told and my engine builder has a lot of experience with them. Not much can be done there. Proof will be in the rebuild.
The repair bill is looking like £3000 ($5000) for new crank / bearing / pump / gasket / rebuild, plus engine removal / reinstall costs, shipping costs, mapping costs, and potential lost race fees as financially I think my season is over. Urge have asked for the engine back to inspect, which of course they have a right to, to give a fair assessment but after asking if I would be covered financially for sending it their and back and for the repair, the conversation wen't downhill and fingers got pointed on both sides, hence I felt I had to get it checked here in the UK. They are refusing to accept the theory this can be caused by the crank and have been unapologetic.
Note that the Urge warranty page has conveniently been updated since my failure, in recent weeks. I wasn't warned about any of this until now and its why I have no comeback apparently. If you are currenty looking at an Urge engine I'd pay close attention to these difficult conditions. if you are buying any engine, I can't find any builder who will modify an OEM crank.
http://www.urgedesigns.com/contact.html
Pics.
(Head cover came unpainted)
08-21-2014, 12:58 AM
#2
Thank you so very much for sharing MB. It seems the engine isn't the only thing lunched - a reputation has been too.
Changing your webpage warranty prose after an event like this makes you look foolish, regardless of reputation to date.
Changing your webpage warranty prose after an event like this makes you look foolish, regardless of reputation to date.
08-21-2014, 01:35 AM
#3
Bloody ell Mark!!!!, I know how it feels.I quite difficult to understand their way of thinking on some of the things that they do.
I've got my engine back off Kings and one of the things I asked specifically was for them not to put an oil return in the girdle.They didn't,but they did put the hole there for it??????.I've had to have that hole welded up.I don't understand the thinking that would allow this to happen.
I'm just hoping it's all been put together properly, but I am nervous boost it.
The plus side of this is that Fernando has taken all the expense himself, including shipping both ways.Credit to him for doing that.
Good luck with yours, I hope everything comes together for you.
I've got my engine back off Kings and one of the things I asked specifically was for them not to put an oil return in the girdle.They didn't,but they did put the hole there for it??????.I've had to have that hole welded up.I don't understand the thinking that would allow this to happen.
I'm just hoping it's all been put together properly, but I am nervous boost it.
The plus side of this is that Fernando has taken all the expense himself, including shipping both ways.Credit to him for doing that.
Good luck with yours, I hope everything comes together for you.
08-21-2014, 02:12 AM
#5
Terrible news MB, and a real shame that an amicable mutual resolution couldn't be reached.
It's brutal, especially because you are at the mercy of the builders being in the US, which in itself brings a whole heap of complications and costs. Not only that, as you and mr-pitts have proved, the pain and trouble when something goes wrong is monumental. You take these companies on good word and good money and for some reason or other they just don't deliver.
Good luck with the rebuild, hope to see you racing again soon!
It's brutal, especially because you are at the mercy of the builders being in the US, which in itself brings a whole heap of complications and costs. Not only that, as you and mr-pitts have proved, the pain and trouble when something goes wrong is monumental. You take these companies on good word and good money and for some reason or other they just don't deliver.
Good luck with the rebuild, hope to see you racing again soon!
08-21-2014, 03:27 AM
#6
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Very sorry to hear this news Mark, it will be a great shame that due to this you will be absent from the grid for the rest of this year.
Again I extend my offer to assist if I can in any way.
Again I extend my offer to assist if I can in any way.
08-21-2014, 04:01 AM
#7
Mark, that's terrible to read! I wish that you'll get the engine sorted out. Urge should step up. Your engine made very good power while it worked so it will be interesting to see the figures with reliable configuration.
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08-21-2014, 04:20 AM
#8
Urge Contact pate Wayback: Dec. 10th 2013 says nothing about limited warranty. If you check GT engines page there's no mention about the limited warranty. 
08-21-2014, 04:32 AM
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Wow, that's one hell of a story. I'm really sorry to hear about that, and we all thank you for posting about this with these details. I always wondered about Urge, if they were great marketers, or actually great engine builders as well.
08-21-2014, 05:45 AM
#10
Sorry to hear this. There are stories going way back (10+yrs ago) regarding the shadiness of Endyn (myself having some first hand experience as well). I have no experience w/ "Urge." Sorry to hear about your bad experience.