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I have a smallish oil cooler mounted right up front in the grill opening and I see the same oil pressures that you saw with the Setrab. I would intuitively expect that oil pressure ought to be up into the 60-80 psi range for the VETC system to operate efficiently. I will be going from a 13-row to a 19-row cooler over this winter.
I'm supercharged and my oil temps on the track run about 210°F near the end of a 30-minute session. On the highway they are 180-190°F.
Absolutely... the Jackson Racing one has no significant internal heat exchanger.... so there's no pressure drop. No surface area means no pressure drop means no heat exchanged, and the temperature delta between hot coolant and hot oil is small, where hot oil and relatively cold air IS significant.
These heat exchanges sell well because they sound good, but they do not cool the oil in any meaningful way The oil to hot coolant heat exchangers are sadly, snake oil. Unless it's literally a oil cooler integrated within a radiator, you're not seeing a pressure drop or significant oil cooling.
The oil cooler integrated in the radiator is commonly used as OEM in lots of vehicles as well as transmission fluid. Cool oil is almost as bad as really hot oil so a lot of OEM's use the oil cooler in the radiator as a way of getting oil up to temp faster as oil takes longer to come up to temp then coolant does. That said, you need to keep the oil in the mid to low 200's and if you have a good radiator keeping a car at the thermostat regulated temp of 180ish having the oil cooled in the radiator using a good cooler inside the radiator is a fine way of doing it in anything but the most extreme conditions. Hell even just using an OEM sandwich plate cooler at the oil filter is a justifiable difference in oil cooling vs no cooler. Liquid coolers are more efficient then air coolers for things of this nature, another reason a lot of OEM manufactures choose to do it that way despite the risks of the coolers failing internally and killing an engine or transmission. I would be very very hesitant about using a cheap cooler (csf concerns me) as I own a shop and I've seen a lot of the "cheap" radiators (some being CSF) have coolers fail internally. While on a street car (I own a volvo shop so they are all volvo's) it won't ruin the engine when the oil cooler fails internally in the radiator, but when the transmission cooler fails internally and pumps coolant into the ATF it will kill the transmission in a matter of seconds. I had a customer installed cheap ebay radiator fail on or near start up earlier this year and destroy the new transmission I just put in the car. It took many many hours on the phone with his legal counsel to explain how the transmission failure was not under warranty because the part that failed causing the transmission failure was not purchased, supplied or installed by me. That said I did end up in the end to stop the hassle do a 2nd transmission at under cost which was a screaming deal for the guy who gave me no thanks at all.
Last edited by Mrsideways; 01-19-2017 at 02:08 PM.
No they are not. No street/weekend driver needs an oil cooler. I'm telling this to you as a guy that tracks his turbo S2000 with oil temps north of 280F.
FALSE. I have to respectfully disagree here. Above 280 (as a rule of thumb, depends on the oil) the viscosity modifiers break down. Do you send your oil out for analysis? We've been doing it for years with Blackstone... oil coolers on forced induction cars are a must, and HIGHLY recommended for stock cars. An oil cooler provides thermal regulation for your oil... without one your oil temps are in no way regulated. The oil reason for a car to not have some sort of oil cooler from the factory are because of bean counters at car companies. You'll find oil coolers on any high performance sports car
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
Originally Posted by hecash
I have a smallish oil cooler mounted right up front in the grill opening and I see the same oil pressures that you saw with the Setrab. I would intuitively expect that oil pressure ought to be up into the 60-80 psi range for the VETC system to operate efficiently. I will be going from a 13-row to a 19-row cooler over this winter.
I'm supercharged and my oil temps on the track run about 210°F near the end of a 30-minute session. On the highway they are 180-190°F.
Very nice! This is the correct way to do it. Temps are a bit low though... are you running a 180* or 200* thermostat? If you're at a 180, I'd recommend a 200 (to cover the street use application). If you need any help with components just holler... info@sakebombgarage.com
I would be very very hesitant about using a cheap cooler (csf concerns me) as I own a shop and I've seen a lot of the "cheap" radiators (some being CSF) have coolers fail internally.
Interesting. I've seen some funny looking welds on some CSF stuff. But, I don't have any experience with the product, itself.
FALSE. Above 280 (as a rule of thumb, depends on the oil) the viscosity modifiers break down. Do you send your oil out for analysis? We've been doing it for years... oil coolers on forced induction cars are a must, and HIGHLY recommended for stock cars. An oil cooler provides thermal regulation for your oil... without one your oil temps are in no way regulated. The oil reason for a car to not have some sort of oil cooler from the factory are because of bean counters at car companies. You'll find oil coolers on any high performance sports car
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
That said, an Air to Air oil cooler on a street car with no thermostat in line is a bad idea. It's like driving around with brake ducting and race pads on your street car. I've many times had customer (and employees) tell me they drive their cars HARD on the street. So I've challenged them and put brake temp paint on their brakes, Saying I bet you can't even get the paint to go to the first color change (iirc like 600f) on street driving. I'm yet to have someone (who doesn't race and purposely dragged the brakes to get them over 600) get the brakes hot enough to change the color on the paint. So there is driving hard on the street which is like .00001% of driving hard on the track. To different worlds and I don't care how hard you say you drive on the street, it's not the same.
There is such a thing as tooo cool and an unregulated oil cooler on a street car on a cold day will do more damage then help. MANY years ago I had an non-thermostated oil cooler on my miata and on the interstate in cool weather I'd see oil drop below 120f. Being a dumb teenager at the time I thought it was cool that my oil was cold. Having the oil in the radiator gives it an automatic temp regulation to prevent ever having it to cool and italso warms it up faster for those that need to jump in there car and drive somewhere instantly rather then let it warm up. While for an all out track car I agree having a good cooler out in clean air is better, the cooler in a radiator has a useful place and if done right can work very well.
Last edited by Mrsideways; 01-19-2017 at 02:38 PM.
Interesting. I've seen some funny looking welds on some CSF stuff. But, I don't have any experience with the product, itself.
Look, like many brands out there you can buy their cheap stuff and you can buy their nice stuff. Maybe this is a case of that. All the CSF stuff I have experience with was priced to compete at the bottom of the market for customer buying solely on price and quite frankly, Everything in that price range is crap.
That said, an Air to Air oil cooler on a street car with no thermostat in line is a bad idea. It's like driving around with brake ducting and race pads on your street car. I've many times had customer (and employees) tell me they drive their cars HARD on the street. So I've challenged them and put brake temp paint on their brakes, Saying I bet you can't even get the paint to go to the first color change (iirc like 600f) on street driving. I'm yet to have someone (who doesn't race and purposely dragged the brakes to get them over 600) get the brakes hot enough to change the color on the paint. So there is driving hard on the street which is like .00001% of driving hard on the track. To different worlds and I don't care how hard you say you drive on the street, it's not the same.
There is such a thing as tooo cool and an unregulated oil cooler on a street car on a cold day will do more damage then help. MANY years ago I had an non-thermostated oil cooler on my miata and on the interstate in cool weather I'd see oil drop below 120f. Being a dumb teenager at the time I thought it was cool that my oil was cold. Having the oil in the radiator gives it an automatic temp regulation to prevent ever having it to cool and italso warms it up faster for those that need to jump in there car and drive somewhere instantly rather then let it warm up.
Whoa whoa whoa... no one should EVER run ANY oil cooler without a thermostat!! Rule Number One of Oil Cooler Club.... you must always run an oil thermostat, FULL STOP. If anyone ever offers an oil cooler without a thermostat run, they have zero clue what they're doing. SMH
Originally Posted by Mrsideways
I've many times had customer (and employees) tell me they drive their cars HARD on the street. So I've challenged them and put brake temp paint on their brakes, Saying I bet you can't even get the paint to go to the first color change (iirc like 600f) on street driving. I'm yet to have someone (who doesn't race and purposely dragged the brakes to get them over 600) get the brakes hot enough to change the color on the paint.
We've put AP Brake Temp Paint on stock S2000 rotors. By "street" I include backroads in that category... give me 25 min in the California redwoods/hills by us... we usually lose the brakes on the way up our "test track" with glowing rotors (Miatas on stock brakes as well... leaving out non FI cars with the 01+ sport rotors... those will last longer). The downhill section of our backroads test track we get about halfway down before we're liquefying brake pads. The rear rotors literally can not cool themselves... all a function of time on brakes as they are radiant cooling only.
Do you need an oil cooler or brakes going to the grocery store? Absolutely not. Commuting to work? Nope. But, we're not on this forum to build cars for the lowest common performance denominator...
Absolutely... the Jackson Racing one has no significant internal heat exchanger.... so there's no pressure drop. No surface area means no pressure drop means no heat exchanged, and the temperature delta between hot coolant and hot oil is small, where hot oil and relatively cold air IS significant.
These heat exchanges sell well because they sound good, but they do not cool the oil in any meaningful way The oil to hot coolant heat exchangers are sadly, snake oil. Unless it's literally a oil cooler integrated within a radiator, you're not seeing a pressure drop or significant oil cooling.
A fluid to fluid heat exchanger will always be more efficient than an air to fluid unit. Water has a much higher specific heat of ~4 joules to ~1 joule for air. The difference is that you are trying to transfer heat on the oil to water heat exchanger from say ~250 degrees F to ~ @210 degrees F. Compared to the oil to air of ~250 to ambient conditions. We are dealing with a situation with multiple variables due to temperature, surface area, and fluid transfer medium, but it's not fair to assume one is significantly better than the other at heat transfer without doing the calculations. I'm no engineer, I'm actually an HVAC tech, aka heat transfer specialists. Our trade is based upon the theories of taking hot air/ fluids from a crucial area and rejecting the heat to the place that it doesn't matter. That being said, we deal with things like this on a daily basis.
I agree that on a track car, an oil to air heat exchanger is probably the best option. After dealing with incredible heat, I had a 76mm dual pass radiator and a 24 row Setrab on my 325whp Miata before I switched to the S2k platform. Those heat exchangers plus significant ducting and airflow mods were the only thing that could keep the car cool for 25 minute full power sessions in 85 degrees. Regardless there is also a huge benefit from keeping the two systems separate, so if one fails, they cannot intermix. That being said, I'm assuming the Jackson Racing internal heat exchanger is bent -10 tubing, which depending on the radius would have an extremely low pressure drop compared to a bar and plate style. Just because there is a low pressure drop, doesn't mean there is no significant heat exchange. Those two variables are not in a proportional relationship as fluid and piping systems are typically designed around the least pressure drop possible, because it raises the efficiency.
A fluid to fluid heat exchanger will always be more efficient than an air to fluid unit. Water has a much higher specific heat of ~4 joules to ~1 joule for air. The difference is that you are trying to transfer heat on the oil to water heat exchanger from say ~250 degrees F to ~ @210 degrees F. Compared to the oil to air of ~250 to ambient conditions. We are dealing with a situation with multiple variables due to temperature, surface area, and fluid transfer medium, but it's not fair to assume one is significantly better than the other at heat transfer without doing the calculations. I'm no engineer, I'm actually an HVAC tech, aka heat transfer specialists. Our trade is based upon the theories of taking hot air/ fluids from a crucial area and rejecting the heat to the place that it doesn't matter. That being said, we deal with things like this on a daily basis.
I agree that on a track car, an oil to air heat exchanger is probably the best option. After dealing with incredible heat, I had a 76mm dual pass radiator and a 24 row Setrab on my 325whp Miata before I switched to the S2k platform. Those heat exchangers plus significant ducting and airflow mods were the only thing that could keep the car cool for 25 minute full power sessions in 85 degrees. Regardless there is also a huge benefit from keeping the two systems separate, so if one fails, they cannot intermix. That being said, I'm assuming the Jackson Racing internal heat exchanger is bent -10 tubing, which depending on the radius would have an extremely low pressure drop compared to a bar and plate style. Just because there is a low pressure drop, doesn't mean there is no significant heat exchange. Those two variables are not in a proportional relationship as fluid and piping systems are typically designed around the least pressure drop possible, because it raises the efficiency.
Very valid points.... I didn't mean to say that pressure drop = cooling efficiency, however zero pressure drop is a tell tale that surface area is MUCH lower, and in a hot oil to hot water system there's no way to get any sort of decent cooling without having lots of surface area (ie pressure drop). Didn't mean to say they are directly related... just in this particular situation with all the variables added up, they are tied together.
325hp Miata... we'll need to chat! Sounds like a built turbo setup... we're re-working our turbo NA now to make some crazy power, and we had a 19 row setrab on it with a big dual pass and all ducted (previously at 260hp). Like you said, literally the only way to keep it cool on track for full sessions (we had the same experience) but with a big radiator and oil cooler, rock freaking solid for extended sessions! Shoot us a PM, would be cool to talk Miatas Terrible cars but fantastic at the same time.
FALSE. I have to respectfully disagree here. Above 280 (as a rule of thumb, depends on the oil) the viscosity modifiers break down. Do you send your oil out for analysis? We've been doing it for years with Blackstone... oil coolers on forced induction cars are a must, and HIGHLY recommended for stock cars. An oil cooler provides thermal regulation for your oil... without one your oil temps are in no way regulated. The oil reason for a car to not have some sort of oil cooler from the factory are because of bean counters at car companies. You'll find oil coolers on any high performance sports car
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
Did I say that I am not running an oil cooler? I am running an oil cooler. You are a vendor trying to sell a product. A stock S2000 in no way needs an oil cooler and it has a factory oil warmer. I will let you know when my motor blows up, but it didn't blow up last season which included:
2 Global Time Attack Weekends
1 GRIDLIFE 3 Day Weekend
1 Honda Meet 3 Day Weekend
10 NASA TT3 Weekends
I am pretty sure I know how to monitor my temps and keep my motor alive.
01-19-2017, 02:00 PM
The oil to hot coolant heat exchangers are sadly, snake oil. Unless it's literally a oil cooler integrated within a radiator, you're not seeing a pressure drop or significant oil cooling.
Terrible cars but fantastic at the same time.
