Can an oil cooler effect oil pressure? Low(er) oil pressure issue
#21
I have a smallish oil cooler mounted right up front in the grill opening and I see the same oil pressures that you saw with the Setrab. I would intuitively expect that oil pressure ought to be up into the 60-80 psi range for the VETC system to operate efficiently. I will be going from a 13-row to a 19-row cooler over this winter.
I'm supercharged and my oil temps on the track run about 210°F near the end of a 30-minute session. On the highway they are 180-190°F.
I'm supercharged and my oil temps on the track run about 210°F near the end of a 30-minute session. On the highway they are 180-190°F.
#22
Absolutely... the Jackson Racing one has no significant internal heat exchanger.... so there's no pressure drop. No surface area means no pressure drop means no heat exchanged, and the temperature delta between hot coolant and hot oil is small, where hot oil and relatively cold air IS significant.
These heat exchanges sell well because they sound good, but they do not cool the oil in any meaningful way The oil to hot coolant heat exchangers are sadly, snake oil. Unless it's literally a oil cooler integrated within a radiator, you're not seeing a pressure drop or significant oil cooling.
These heat exchanges sell well because they sound good, but they do not cool the oil in any meaningful way The oil to hot coolant heat exchangers are sadly, snake oil. Unless it's literally a oil cooler integrated within a radiator, you're not seeing a pressure drop or significant oil cooling.
Last edited by Mrsideways; 01-19-2017 at 02:08 PM.
#23
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
I have a smallish oil cooler mounted right up front in the grill opening and I see the same oil pressures that you saw with the Setrab. I would intuitively expect that oil pressure ought to be up into the 60-80 psi range for the VETC system to operate efficiently. I will be going from a 13-row to a 19-row cooler over this winter.
I'm supercharged and my oil temps on the track run about 210°F near the end of a 30-minute session. On the highway they are 180-190°F.
I'm supercharged and my oil temps on the track run about 210°F near the end of a 30-minute session. On the highway they are 180-190°F.
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Check some of our most popular products for the S2000:
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- Front BBK AP Competition
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Last edited by SakeBomb Garage; 01-19-2017 at 02:36 PM.
#25
FALSE. Above 280 (as a rule of thumb, depends on the oil) the viscosity modifiers break down. Do you send your oil out for analysis? We've been doing it for years... oil coolers on forced induction cars are a must, and HIGHLY recommended for stock cars. An oil cooler provides thermal regulation for your oil... without one your oil temps are in no way regulated. The oil reason for a car to not have some sort of oil cooler from the factory are because of bean counters at car companies. You'll find oil coolers on any high performance sports car
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
There is such a thing as tooo cool and an unregulated oil cooler on a street car on a cold day will do more damage then help. MANY years ago I had an non-thermostated oil cooler on my miata and on the interstate in cool weather I'd see oil drop below 120f. Being a dumb teenager at the time I thought it was cool that my oil was cold. Having the oil in the radiator gives it an automatic temp regulation to prevent ever having it to cool and italso warms it up faster for those that need to jump in there car and drive somewhere instantly rather then let it warm up. While for an all out track car I agree having a good cooler out in clean air is better, the cooler in a radiator has a useful place and if done right can work very well.
Last edited by Mrsideways; 01-19-2017 at 02:38 PM.
#26
Look, like many brands out there you can buy their cheap stuff and you can buy their nice stuff. Maybe this is a case of that. All the CSF stuff I have experience with was priced to compete at the bottom of the market for customer buying solely on price and quite frankly, Everything in that price range is crap.
#27
That said, an Air to Air oil cooler on a street car with no thermostat in line is a bad idea. It's like driving around with brake ducting and race pads on your street car. I've many times had customer (and employees) tell me they drive their cars HARD on the street. So I've challenged them and put brake temp paint on their brakes, Saying I bet you can't even get the paint to go to the first color change (iirc like 600f) on street driving. I'm yet to have someone (who doesn't race and purposely dragged the brakes to get them over 600) get the brakes hot enough to change the color on the paint. So there is driving hard on the street which is like .00001% of driving hard on the track. To different worlds and I don't care how hard you say you drive on the street, it's not the same.
There is such a thing as tooo cool and an unregulated oil cooler on a street car on a cold day will do more damage then help. MANY years ago I had an non-thermostated oil cooler on my miata and on the interstate in cool weather I'd see oil drop below 120f. Being a dumb teenager at the time I thought it was cool that my oil was cold. Having the oil in the radiator gives it an automatic temp regulation to prevent ever having it to cool and italso warms it up faster for those that need to jump in there car and drive somewhere instantly rather then let it warm up.
There is such a thing as tooo cool and an unregulated oil cooler on a street car on a cold day will do more damage then help. MANY years ago I had an non-thermostated oil cooler on my miata and on the interstate in cool weather I'd see oil drop below 120f. Being a dumb teenager at the time I thought it was cool that my oil was cold. Having the oil in the radiator gives it an automatic temp regulation to prevent ever having it to cool and italso warms it up faster for those that need to jump in there car and drive somewhere instantly rather then let it warm up.
I've many times had customer (and employees) tell me they drive their cars HARD on the street. So I've challenged them and put brake temp paint on their brakes, Saying I bet you can't even get the paint to go to the first color change (iirc like 600f) on street driving. I'm yet to have someone (who doesn't race and purposely dragged the brakes to get them over 600) get the brakes hot enough to change the color on the paint.
Do you need an oil cooler or brakes going to the grocery store? Absolutely not. Commuting to work? Nope. But, we're not on this forum to build cars for the lowest common performance denominator...
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Check some of our most popular products for the S2000:
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- Rear BBK RX-8 Caliper Conversion
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Check some of our most popular products for the S2000:
- Ohlins DFV Billet Lower Mount
- Rear BBK RX-8 Caliper Conversion
- Front BBK AP Competition
- Setrab Oil Cooler Kit
#28
Absolutely... the Jackson Racing one has no significant internal heat exchanger.... so there's no pressure drop. No surface area means no pressure drop means no heat exchanged, and the temperature delta between hot coolant and hot oil is small, where hot oil and relatively cold air IS significant.
These heat exchanges sell well because they sound good, but they do not cool the oil in any meaningful way The oil to hot coolant heat exchangers are sadly, snake oil. Unless it's literally a oil cooler integrated within a radiator, you're not seeing a pressure drop or significant oil cooling.
These heat exchanges sell well because they sound good, but they do not cool the oil in any meaningful way The oil to hot coolant heat exchangers are sadly, snake oil. Unless it's literally a oil cooler integrated within a radiator, you're not seeing a pressure drop or significant oil cooling.
I agree that on a track car, an oil to air heat exchanger is probably the best option. After dealing with incredible heat, I had a 76mm dual pass radiator and a 24 row Setrab on my 325whp Miata before I switched to the S2k platform. Those heat exchangers plus significant ducting and airflow mods were the only thing that could keep the car cool for 25 minute full power sessions in 85 degrees. Regardless there is also a huge benefit from keeping the two systems separate, so if one fails, they cannot intermix. That being said, I'm assuming the Jackson Racing internal heat exchanger is bent -10 tubing, which depending on the radius would have an extremely low pressure drop compared to a bar and plate style. Just because there is a low pressure drop, doesn't mean there is no significant heat exchange. Those two variables are not in a proportional relationship as fluid and piping systems are typically designed around the least pressure drop possible, because it raises the efficiency.
#29
A fluid to fluid heat exchanger will always be more efficient than an air to fluid unit. Water has a much higher specific heat of ~4 joules to ~1 joule for air. The difference is that you are trying to transfer heat on the oil to water heat exchanger from say ~250 degrees F to ~ @210 degrees F. Compared to the oil to air of ~250 to ambient conditions. We are dealing with a situation with multiple variables due to temperature, surface area, and fluid transfer medium, but it's not fair to assume one is significantly better than the other at heat transfer without doing the calculations. I'm no engineer, I'm actually an HVAC tech, aka heat transfer specialists. Our trade is based upon the theories of taking hot air/ fluids from a crucial area and rejecting the heat to the place that it doesn't matter. That being said, we deal with things like this on a daily basis.
I agree that on a track car, an oil to air heat exchanger is probably the best option. After dealing with incredible heat, I had a 76mm dual pass radiator and a 24 row Setrab on my 325whp Miata before I switched to the S2k platform. Those heat exchangers plus significant ducting and airflow mods were the only thing that could keep the car cool for 25 minute full power sessions in 85 degrees. Regardless there is also a huge benefit from keeping the two systems separate, so if one fails, they cannot intermix. That being said, I'm assuming the Jackson Racing internal heat exchanger is bent -10 tubing, which depending on the radius would have an extremely low pressure drop compared to a bar and plate style. Just because there is a low pressure drop, doesn't mean there is no significant heat exchange. Those two variables are not in a proportional relationship as fluid and piping systems are typically designed around the least pressure drop possible, because it raises the efficiency.
I agree that on a track car, an oil to air heat exchanger is probably the best option. After dealing with incredible heat, I had a 76mm dual pass radiator and a 24 row Setrab on my 325whp Miata before I switched to the S2k platform. Those heat exchangers plus significant ducting and airflow mods were the only thing that could keep the car cool for 25 minute full power sessions in 85 degrees. Regardless there is also a huge benefit from keeping the two systems separate, so if one fails, they cannot intermix. That being said, I'm assuming the Jackson Racing internal heat exchanger is bent -10 tubing, which depending on the radius would have an extremely low pressure drop compared to a bar and plate style. Just because there is a low pressure drop, doesn't mean there is no significant heat exchange. Those two variables are not in a proportional relationship as fluid and piping systems are typically designed around the least pressure drop possible, because it raises the efficiency.
325hp Miata... we'll need to chat! Sounds like a built turbo setup... we're re-working our turbo NA now to make some crazy power, and we had a 19 row setrab on it with a big dual pass and all ducted (previously at 260hp). Like you said, literally the only way to keep it cool on track for full sessions (we had the same experience) but with a big radiator and oil cooler, rock freaking solid for extended sessions! Shoot us a PM, would be cool to talk Miatas Terrible cars but fantastic at the same time.
__________________
SAKEBOMB GARAGE > Click here to contact Us
Check some of our most popular products for the S2000:
- Ohlins DFV Billet Lower Mount
- Rear BBK RX-8 Caliper Conversion
- Front BBK AP Competition
- Setrab Oil Cooler Kit
SAKEBOMB GARAGE > Click here to contact Us
Check some of our most popular products for the S2000:
- Ohlins DFV Billet Lower Mount
- Rear BBK RX-8 Caliper Conversion
- Front BBK AP Competition
- Setrab Oil Cooler Kit
#30
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FALSE. I have to respectfully disagree here. Above 280 (as a rule of thumb, depends on the oil) the viscosity modifiers break down. Do you send your oil out for analysis? We've been doing it for years with Blackstone... oil coolers on forced induction cars are a must, and HIGHLY recommended for stock cars. An oil cooler provides thermal regulation for your oil... without one your oil temps are in no way regulated. The oil reason for a car to not have some sort of oil cooler from the factory are because of bean counters at car companies. You'll find oil coolers on any high performance sports car
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
Just because your motor has not blown up does not mean it does not need an oil cooler... ESPECIALLY if you track your car
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I am pretty sure I know how to monitor my temps and keep my motor alive.
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