Removing all free play from clutch rod
03-26-2014, 12:21 PM
#21
Moderator
There is no adjustment for that, there is only one correct setting for the clutch rod for all situations and all clutches.
If your clutch is grabbing very high, you have a worn disc.
If your clutch is grabbing very high, you have a worn disc.
03-26-2014, 12:22 PM
#22
Now here is my question.
I have removed all play in the linkage before, but this has only caused the clutch to engage uncomfortably far out. Is there another adjustment to make so the engagement is closer to the floor/firewall of the car? It feels as though all engagement occurs in the first 1" of pedal travel.
I have removed all play in the linkage before, but this has only caused the clutch to engage uncomfortably far out. Is there another adjustment to make so the engagement is closer to the floor/firewall of the car? It feels as though all engagement occurs in the first 1" of pedal travel.
03-27-2014, 06:06 AM
#23
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More than likely worn - I've dialed in some more play to adjust as such; it is the stock clutch, as the 2nd & 3rd gear buzz is present.
No slippage or like issues.
Thanks!
No slippage or like issues.
Thanks!
10-22-2016, 03:47 PM
#24
Rest assured you can dial out all play in the rod to zero freeplay in the LINKAGE, not the master piston.
I have been trying to convey this for years and it is just too much to grasp I guess.
The only way your clutch pedal would be slightly engaging is if you continued to turn the rod until the piston moved past the point of the fluid hole.
Feel the free play first with one finger. You will feel two distinct and separate freeplays on a non adjusted car.
The first is rod-slop, dial it out. All of it.
The second is master piston movement, leave this alone. This is the built in master 0 pressure zone.
EVEN if you were to dial out all freeplay, then further adjust the rod to a point where it moves the piston 10% into the 0 pressure zone, you would still be safe and your clutch is not engaged at all.
This is why zero clutch rod freeplay is 100% safe and the most effective. You do not need to leave any slop in the rod or play at all. You still have another 1/4" or so of master 0 pressure zone before any engagement happens.
So to answer OP, yes if will dialed out BOTH freeplays, your clutch pedal would always be under pressure or engagement. This is not what we are doing, but I'm sure that's how your guy took it.
I have been trying to convey this for years and it is just too much to grasp I guess.
The only way your clutch pedal would be slightly engaging is if you continued to turn the rod until the piston moved past the point of the fluid hole.
Feel the free play first with one finger. You will feel two distinct and separate freeplays on a non adjusted car.
The first is rod-slop, dial it out. All of it.
The second is master piston movement, leave this alone. This is the built in master 0 pressure zone.
EVEN if you were to dial out all freeplay, then further adjust the rod to a point where it moves the piston 10% into the 0 pressure zone, you would still be safe and your clutch is not engaged at all.
This is why zero clutch rod freeplay is 100% safe and the most effective. You do not need to leave any slop in the rod or play at all. You still have another 1/4" or so of master 0 pressure zone before any engagement happens.
So to answer OP, yes if will dialed out BOTH freeplays, your clutch pedal would always be under pressure or engagement. This is not what we are doing, but I'm sure that's how your guy took it.
http://vid51.photobucket.com/albums/...i/IMG_4842.mp4
What are the two different 'freeplays'? in the video using my pinkie finger I apply enough pressure to where I can't because it seems this is the first 'zone'? When driving I barely have to push the clutch and it engages, I hate it as I have no feel or response from the clutch pedal and I'm not able to do a smooth shift up or down in any gear, meaning there's just always a bit of I guess it's 'slip' but I'm not sure if that is correct terminology, it's just never as smooth shifting as before and I never had this problem, I could shift smooth enough to let passengers sleep on long drives or tear it up in a canyon but now it's just a bit jerky in every gear no matter how well I rev match (and I can heel toe very well from a lot of track days)
Now at the 9-10 second mark I push in real hard. It doesn't matter if I push gently or hard that rod and everything else moves, so I don't understand these different zones, plays, rods, pistons and cylinders... I know this is simple, but I have no benchmark video to compare against this. To me it looks like my setup is overtightened with no adequate play in the clutch pedal. It just looks and feels completely wrong to me.
What I don't understand is if my setup is correct in the video? It seems I should be able to move the pedal more before the rod goes in. What/where is the rod slop? What/where is the excess Master Cylinder slop?
thanks in advance
10-22-2016, 05:26 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Billman250' timestamp='1395667077' post='23077937
Rest assured you can dial out all play in the rod to zero freeplay in the LINKAGE, not the master piston.
I have been trying to convey this for years and it is just too much to grasp I guess.
The only way your clutch pedal would be slightly engaging is if you continued to turn the rod until the piston moved past the point of the fluid hole.
Feel the free play first with one finger. You will feel two distinct and separate freeplays on a non adjusted car.
The first is rod-slop, dial it out. All of it.
The second is master piston movement, leave this alone. This is the built in master 0 pressure zone.
EVEN if you were to dial out all freeplay, then further adjust the rod to a point where it moves the piston 10% into the 0 pressure zone, you would still be safe and your clutch is not engaged at all.
This is why zero clutch rod freeplay is 100% safe and the most effective. You do not need to leave any slop in the rod or play at all. You still have another 1/4" or so of master 0 pressure zone before any engagement happens.
So to answer OP, yes if will dialed out BOTH freeplays, your clutch pedal would always be under pressure or engagement. This is not what we are doing, but I'm sure that's how your guy took it.
I have been trying to convey this for years and it is just too much to grasp I guess.
The only way your clutch pedal would be slightly engaging is if you continued to turn the rod until the piston moved past the point of the fluid hole.
Feel the free play first with one finger. You will feel two distinct and separate freeplays on a non adjusted car.
The first is rod-slop, dial it out. All of it.
The second is master piston movement, leave this alone. This is the built in master 0 pressure zone.
EVEN if you were to dial out all freeplay, then further adjust the rod to a point where it moves the piston 10% into the 0 pressure zone, you would still be safe and your clutch is not engaged at all.
This is why zero clutch rod freeplay is 100% safe and the most effective. You do not need to leave any slop in the rod or play at all. You still have another 1/4" or so of master 0 pressure zone before any engagement happens.
So to answer OP, yes if will dialed out BOTH freeplays, your clutch pedal would always be under pressure or engagement. This is not what we are doing, but I'm sure that's how your guy took it.
http://vid51.photobucket.com/albums/...i/IMG_4842.mp4
What are the two different 'freeplays'? in the video using my pinkie finger I apply enough pressure to where I can't because it seems this is the first 'zone'? When driving I barely have to push the clutch and it engages, I hate it as I have no feel or response from the clutch pedal and I'm not able to do a smooth shift up or down in any gear, meaning there's just always a bit of I guess it's 'slip' but I'm not sure if that is correct terminology, it's just never as smooth shifting as before and I never had this problem, I could shift smooth enough to let passengers sleep on long drives or tear it up in a canyon but now it's just a bit jerky in every gear no matter how well I rev match (and I can heel toe very well from a lot of track days)
Now at the 9-10 second mark I push in real hard. It doesn't matter if I push gently or hard that rod and everything else moves, so I don't understand these different zones, plays, rods, pistons and cylinders... I know this is simple, but I have no benchmark video to compare against this. To me it looks like my setup is overtightened with no adequate play in the clutch pedal. It just looks and feels completely wrong to me.
What I don't understand is if my setup is correct in the video? It seems I should be able to move the pedal more before the rod goes in. What/where is the rod slop? What/where is the excess Master Cylinder slop?
thanks in advance
If it was my car and for peace of mind, I would loosen the 12mm locknut, turn the clutch rod counter-clockwise a few turns and see if it seems to be releasing pressure on the mc piston. If you don't feel it releasing pressure when loosening the rod and it just feels more loose, then it was likely loose to begin with as I suspect. Conversely, if you do feel it releasing pressure on the MC piston then it was too tight. I would get the rod loosened, then I would tighten it and take it up to the first contact point by turning the rod clockwise, then back it off 1/2 - 1 turn for a bit of clearance as a margin of safety. Test it out and see if anything has changed.
10-26-2016, 03:40 PM
#27
Hi Billman, sorry for my frustration and all the questions, I was a couple states away from you this summer and almost made the trip to see you for a tuneup! Ok, so I plan on putting a solid DIY with video/pics after this due to the massive confusion written word has. Can you elaborate a bit, using my video, where are the two different slops/plays you discuss? There's the first engagement that happens after 1/2" and then where's the second one? (The rod moves the instant pressure is put on the pedal).
In this writeup you state: "When you are done, LOOK AT THE ROD while applying light pinky pressure. All you should see is the master piston movement (freeplay), and not rod-to-master play. All you should FEEL is one freeplay."
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un...lutch-1042692/
This last part is what's confusing the snot out of everyone, is it one movement or two? What is the 'rod to master play' vs the master piston movement?? Everything is moving in my video, the pedal, my pinky, the rod, everything...can you please show where do you see these two movements under the dash as compared to my video? In my video there are TWO freeplays, not one as you state and the rod moves instantly with just a milligram of pressure on the pedal.
The second part is the adjustment, it appears there are TWO adjustments with the same 12 mm nut and rod. If I unscrew the 12 mm nut and turn the rod one way or the other it adjusts play, but if I push it in and out then it adjusts height? Is that right?
I just want to get this right, the shop adjusted something that doesn't feel right to me and I need to understand this to fix it back before I start mucking around down there.
Is anyone willing to post a video showing this if so I'll paypal you $25, or more? ...I'm lost and really need visual help, a 20 second video will go so, so far with this.
In this writeup you state: "When you are done, LOOK AT THE ROD while applying light pinky pressure. All you should see is the master piston movement (freeplay), and not rod-to-master play. All you should FEEL is one freeplay."
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un...lutch-1042692/
This last part is what's confusing the snot out of everyone, is it one movement or two? What is the 'rod to master play' vs the master piston movement?? Everything is moving in my video, the pedal, my pinky, the rod, everything...can you please show where do you see these two movements under the dash as compared to my video? In my video there are TWO freeplays, not one as you state and the rod moves instantly with just a milligram of pressure on the pedal.
The second part is the adjustment, it appears there are TWO adjustments with the same 12 mm nut and rod. If I unscrew the 12 mm nut and turn the rod one way or the other it adjusts play, but if I push it in and out then it adjusts height? Is that right?
I just want to get this right, the shop adjusted something that doesn't feel right to me and I need to understand this to fix it back before I start mucking around down there.
Is anyone willing to post a video showing this if so I'll paypal you $25, or more? ...I'm lost and really need visual help, a 20 second video will go so, so far with this.
10-26-2016, 04:10 PM
#28
Moderator
In your video, the clutch pedal is adjust correctly, so you will only see the second freeplay (pedal, rod, master piston all move as one)
On a car that has never been adjusted, there will also be a first free play (pedal and rod move, but master piston does not) rod will also be sitting low and not centered.
On a car that has never been adjusted, there will also be a first free play (pedal and rod move, but master piston does not) rod will also be sitting low and not centered.
10-26-2016, 04:46 PM
#29
At around 3 seconds in your video is the play to be removed a little at a time..To be safe..
There must be SOME play in this area though ,as ZeroPT said looks like you have too much,as I think also..
& Billman thinks it looks ok
There must be SOME play in this area though ,as ZeroPT said looks like you have too much,as I think also..
& Billman thinks it looks ok
10-26-2016, 05:13 PM
#30
On the video, some of the time he is not letting the clutch pedal all the way back up. So it might look like there is not enough play if you didn't realize this. Bilan is right (duh, of course), its adjusted correctly.
Let me try to explain the Billman way to adjust clutch:
Loosen 12mm lock nut. Using fingers only, turn rod to lengthen it until you see rod just start to push in the piston in the back of MC. Stop. Tighten locknut. Beer.
If its adjusted properly, as soon as you start to move the pedal, the piston moves. Yet when clutch is let up all the way, the piston isn't visibly pushed into MC bore.
All the play needed is built into MC. Zero play outside MC = correct play. Not positve play, not negative play. Zero play.
Zero play outside MC = correct total play
Let me try to explain the Billman way to adjust clutch:
Loosen 12mm lock nut. Using fingers only, turn rod to lengthen it until you see rod just start to push in the piston in the back of MC. Stop. Tighten locknut. Beer.
If its adjusted properly, as soon as you start to move the pedal, the piston moves. Yet when clutch is let up all the way, the piston isn't visibly pushed into MC bore.
All the play needed is built into MC. Zero play outside MC = correct play. Not positve play, not negative play. Zero play.
Zero play outside MC = correct total play