Thunderhill: A few lessons learned and analysis of a (frustrating) lap
06-24-2002, 04:05 PM
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Thunderhill: A few lessons learned and analysis of a (frustrating) lap
I've learned quite a bit from this board that has helped me avoid a lot of pitfalls in owning and tracking the S2000. Every time I learn something I haven't read here I like to post in the hopes it might help someone. This will also serve as personal notes for next time I go to Thunderhill. 
A few lessons
1. Don't work on your car at the track. Show up, unpack, be ready to go. Anything more than 10-15 minutes preparation is too much. Get there, unload stuff, change tires if necessary, and hit it. I showed up Thursday needing to swap out pads, exhaust system, and put on a front spoiler. Missed half the first session doing pads. Spent the whole next hour crawling around hurriedly doing the barbeque-you-hot exhaust and front spoiler. Just when I was ready for a break it was time to drive! After that session was lunch, during which my brake fluid boiled, so I missed the next session bleeding brakes. Later I had ro rush to swap exhaust systems back out and pull off the front spoiler to make it to the tire shop. Not fun!
The day ended up being stressful and something of a waste spending the day working on the car. The time between sessions you really need to rest, drink fluids, and reflect on things. Talk with the faster guys about what they're doing and the line they're taking, and be available to help others.
2. Look ahead! In any sport where your body is hurtling through space (skiing, snowboarding, surfing, etc.) you tend to go where you're looking. There were several places at Thunderhill where you brake hard and turn (like 1, 5, & 14). I found myself staring straight ahead late in the braking zone, to see what sort of big ugly mess I was sure I was about to plow into. The net result was overbraking and missing the turn in point, blowing the corner. Keep your head and eyes on the spot you want to be, and you will more naturally go there.
3. One cool down lap may not be enough to really cool down brakes. Tool around the paddock or out on the open road if possible to cool 'em off and keep from boiling fluid. It saved my butt Friday.
A frustrating lap of Thunderhill
After wasting Thursday but doing a 2:11.5 in the first session Friday morning, I knew there was a 2:08 or 09 out there easy. I still didn't know the line through 2, hadn't figured out 8 at all, and was going too slow over 9. Got a chance to follow Dave in a later session (sorry for cutting you off in pre-grid Erik), picked up some good tips from him about 8, and liked his line through 2. Kept chipping away at 9, trying to get all the way out to the exit burm.
So the second session after lunch begins, and I'm feeling good. Got less than a half tank of 100 octane, so the car is nice and light. Follow Dave for a lap or two as he plays tag with a very well-driven RX-7. They're steadily pulling away from me until I approach a waving yellow at 5. I slow way down and over the crest I see the RX-7 sitting way off to the left. Guess he couldn't hang with the S2K - way to go Dave!
As usual we get into some traffic after the second lap and wade through that. I take the opportunity to cool things down a bit and plan a charge (since both Aaron and Rylan are kicking my ass at this point) as soon as things look clear. Coming out of 15 onto the straight a couple laps later things look good, here we go!
Full throttle all the way down the straight, up to about 118 before braking at the #3 marker. Trying to look ahead, keeping the right tires on the shiny part of the pavement. Staying in fourth, slow to upper-mid 80's and full-throttle accelerate past the apex, all the way out to the exit burm; hit ~90 at the end of the burm, keep accelerating over the top and down towards 2. All right!
A quick, hard brake and downshift for 2. Approach from about 1/2-2/3 to the right, and slowly bring the car in on this long sweeper. Once at the extreme inside, hold it hold it, and at indeterminate bush #137b (experinced ones here know the timing), roll on to full throttle and accelerate out to the exit. Ahhh, no way I'm gonna make it! Ahhh!!-barely, stay in the gas onto the exit burm about halfway down its length, then bring the car back on at its end.
The good run out of 2 gets the car close to redline in third before again braking quick and hard, trailing and a bit of countersteer to bring the car into the inside of 3. I took Rylan's advise and kept the car right on the inside paintline, holding the (stock but oversteer-prone when equipped with 225/245's) car in a very delicate balance through the nasty decreasing radius.
Rolling on the gas a bit more with turn 4 visible, making the transition as smoothly as possible. The car never felt settled between 3 and 4, and I shoot a glance at the two tracks through the grass I made earlier in the day. Not enough power for anything to happen in 4, full throttle through and out to the exit burm.
Braking for 5 at the #3 marker as the asphalt there always felt a little slippery. Turn in around #1, back on the gas but still in third - whoah! Peel around the back of the apex curb, the whole car gets really light over the crest and I look down - 49! That's a lot faster than I've been over 5 before.
Baby the throttle at mid-track all around 5a to minimize wheelspin - man I need a front swaybar!
Over to the right for 6, a quick stab of brakes, and a careful turn-in and throttle application. This one was tricky because you had to be on the gas before you could even see the apex or the exit. Maybe if I had eyes in the side of my head! That would've helped locate the exit to 2 too.
Full throttle out of 6 onto the exit burm, not losing focus and shifting to fourth somewhere around 7. Approaching 8, looking for the rust spots on the track suggested by Dave as the turn-in point. Where are they? Ahhh! Approaching at ~104, lift a little, feather, mash the gas, turn -now! Get as much of the inside burm as possible, whoah baby - 96! The inside front skitters on the asphalt over the nasty rise, track out and use every inch of the exit burm as it goes by in a hurry. Whew!
Charging up the hill towards 9. Where's that supercharger when you need it?! Brake and downshift between #3 and #2 markers, turn in for an early-feeling apex, back on full throttle. Whee - 75 at the crest! Seems like every corner at Thunderhill has some sort of crest to it that wants to shoot you off into space, 9 is no exception. Car gets really light coming down the hill, shift to fourth.
The hardest corners behind me, I know this is MY lap. The one that'll put me on top in MOD-R, the one that will win me fortune and glory. But wait, what's that I see way in the distance, halfway towards turn 10? A Miata? Uh-oh!!!
The Miata proceeds to "Zoom-Zoom™" from a few hundred feet ahead of me on the straight to about 3 feet off my front bumper as he brakes too much and too soon for 10. Ahhh!! #$%~@*ing son of a #@%$#&@!!!! I'm not sure if the passenger was a helmeted Miss Daisy but the pace through 10, 11, and 12 was such that pounding my head on the steering wheel while shouting obscenities and waving arms, eyes cloudy with rage, detracted so little from the task of driving that I had no problem staying right on his bumper.
I could feel the extra seconds tick by like spider bites in the tunica dartos (inside joke). By the time I got the limp point-by past 12 it was all over. Damn!
Braking around #3 marker and 4-3-2 downshift for 14, turn in very late, smooth, gentle throttle application to minimize wheelspin, out to the exit burm, shift to third, wheel straight for half a heartbeat, roll on to full throttle out to the exit of 15 and down the straight.
...
The next angry lap was not as good but still very quick, in 2:10:xx territory, but a black station wagon that must've been on its way home with kids and groceries strayed on track, messing up that lap in roughly the same spot.
......
p.s. No disrespect to Miata and WRX owners/drivers, many of you are much better drivers than I (I know several examples of each). It was just the pace of these two individuals in the same spot on consecutive laps, they may as well have been riding a dairy cow.
A few lessons
1. Don't work on your car at the track. Show up, unpack, be ready to go. Anything more than 10-15 minutes preparation is too much. Get there, unload stuff, change tires if necessary, and hit it. I showed up Thursday needing to swap out pads, exhaust system, and put on a front spoiler. Missed half the first session doing pads. Spent the whole next hour crawling around hurriedly doing the barbeque-you-hot exhaust and front spoiler. Just when I was ready for a break it was time to drive! After that session was lunch, during which my brake fluid boiled, so I missed the next session bleeding brakes. Later I had ro rush to swap exhaust systems back out and pull off the front spoiler to make it to the tire shop. Not fun!
The day ended up being stressful and something of a waste spending the day working on the car. The time between sessions you really need to rest, drink fluids, and reflect on things. Talk with the faster guys about what they're doing and the line they're taking, and be available to help others.
2. Look ahead! In any sport where your body is hurtling through space (skiing, snowboarding, surfing, etc.) you tend to go where you're looking. There were several places at Thunderhill where you brake hard and turn (like 1, 5, & 14). I found myself staring straight ahead late in the braking zone, to see what sort of big ugly mess I was sure I was about to plow into. The net result was overbraking and missing the turn in point, blowing the corner. Keep your head and eyes on the spot you want to be, and you will more naturally go there.
3. One cool down lap may not be enough to really cool down brakes. Tool around the paddock or out on the open road if possible to cool 'em off and keep from boiling fluid. It saved my butt Friday.
A frustrating lap of Thunderhill
After wasting Thursday but doing a 2:11.5 in the first session Friday morning, I knew there was a 2:08 or 09 out there easy. I still didn't know the line through 2, hadn't figured out 8 at all, and was going too slow over 9. Got a chance to follow Dave in a later session (sorry for cutting you off in pre-grid Erik
), picked up some good tips from him about 8, and liked his line through 2. Kept chipping away at 9, trying to get all the way out to the exit burm.So the second session after lunch begins, and I'm feeling good. Got less than a half tank of 100 octane, so the car is nice and light. Follow Dave for a lap or two as he plays tag with a very well-driven RX-7. They're steadily pulling away from me until I approach a waving yellow at 5. I slow way down and over the crest I see the RX-7 sitting way off to the left. Guess he couldn't hang with the S2K - way to go Dave!
As usual we get into some traffic after the second lap and wade through that. I take the opportunity to cool things down a bit and plan a charge (since both Aaron and Rylan are kicking my ass at this point) as soon as things look clear. Coming out of 15 onto the straight a couple laps later things look good, here we go!
Full throttle all the way down the straight, up to about 118 before braking at the #3 marker. Trying to look ahead, keeping the right tires on the shiny part of the pavement. Staying in fourth, slow to upper-mid 80's and full-throttle accelerate past the apex, all the way out to the exit burm; hit ~90 at the end of the burm, keep accelerating over the top and down towards 2. All right!
A quick, hard brake and downshift for 2. Approach from about 1/2-2/3 to the right, and slowly bring the car in on this long sweeper. Once at the extreme inside, hold it hold it, and at indeterminate bush #137b (experinced ones here know the timing), roll on to full throttle and accelerate out to the exit. Ahhh, no way I'm gonna make it! Ahhh!!-barely, stay in the gas onto the exit burm about halfway down its length, then bring the car back on at its end.
The good run out of 2 gets the car close to redline in third before again braking quick and hard, trailing and a bit of countersteer to bring the car into the inside of 3. I took Rylan's advise and kept the car right on the inside paintline, holding the (stock but oversteer-prone when equipped with 225/245's) car in a very delicate balance through the nasty decreasing radius.
Rolling on the gas a bit more with turn 4 visible, making the transition as smoothly as possible. The car never felt settled between 3 and 4, and I shoot a glance at the two tracks through the grass I made earlier in the day. Not enough power for anything to happen in 4, full throttle through and out to the exit burm.
Braking for 5 at the #3 marker as the asphalt there always felt a little slippery. Turn in around #1, back on the gas but still in third - whoah! Peel around the back of the apex curb, the whole car gets really light over the crest and I look down - 49! That's a lot faster than I've been over 5 before.
Baby the throttle at mid-track all around 5a to minimize wheelspin - man I need a front swaybar!
Over to the right for 6, a quick stab of brakes, and a careful turn-in and throttle application. This one was tricky because you had to be on the gas before you could even see the apex or the exit. Maybe if I had eyes in the side of my head! That would've helped locate the exit to 2 too.
Full throttle out of 6 onto the exit burm, not losing focus and shifting to fourth somewhere around 7. Approaching 8, looking for the rust spots on the track suggested by Dave as the turn-in point. Where are they? Ahhh! Approaching at ~104, lift a little, feather, mash the gas, turn -now! Get as much of the inside burm as possible, whoah baby - 96! The inside front skitters on the asphalt over the nasty rise, track out and use every inch of the exit burm as it goes by in a hurry. Whew!
Charging up the hill towards 9. Where's that supercharger when you need it?! Brake and downshift between #3 and #2 markers, turn in for an early-feeling apex, back on full throttle. Whee - 75 at the crest! Seems like every corner at Thunderhill has some sort of crest to it that wants to shoot you off into space, 9 is no exception. Car gets really light coming down the hill, shift to fourth.
The hardest corners behind me, I know this is MY lap. The one that'll put me on top in MOD-R, the one that will win me fortune and glory. But wait, what's that I see way in the distance, halfway towards turn 10? A Miata? Uh-oh!!!
The Miata proceeds to "Zoom-Zoom™" from a few hundred feet ahead of me on the straight to about 3 feet off my front bumper as he brakes too much and too soon for 10. Ahhh!! #$%~@*ing son of a #@%$#&@!!!! I'm not sure if the passenger was a helmeted Miss Daisy but the pace through 10, 11, and 12 was such that pounding my head on the steering wheel while shouting obscenities and waving arms, eyes cloudy with rage, detracted so little from the task of driving that I had no problem staying right on his bumper.
I could feel the extra seconds tick by like spider bites in the tunica dartos (inside joke). By the time I got the limp point-by past 12 it was all over. Damn!
Braking around #3 marker and 4-3-2 downshift for 14, turn in very late, smooth, gentle throttle application to minimize wheelspin, out to the exit burm, shift to third, wheel straight for half a heartbeat, roll on to full throttle out to the exit of 15 and down the straight.
...
The next angry lap was not as good but still very quick, in 2:10:xx territory, but a black station wagon that must've been on its way home with kids and groceries strayed on track, messing up that lap in roughly the same spot.
......
p.s. No disrespect to Miata and WRX owners/drivers, many of you are much better drivers than I (I know several examples of each). It was just the pace of these two individuals in the same spot on consecutive laps, they may as well have been riding a dairy cow.
06-24-2002, 04:46 PM
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nice post. 
Unless you have a setup like Doug Hayashi 
Yeah, this helps on 1 and 8.
50mph around Thunderhill for the cooldown and several laps around the paddock seemed to work for me. (No cracked rotors)
I feel for you. You guys were way too fast anyway. I accomplished my goal of breaking 2:20 (2:18:xx) so I loafed around the afternoon session on Friday and gave ride alongs for people. You should have tried to get out at the beginning of the white session to get a few good laps.
Out of curiosity, what modifications do you have on your car?
1. Don't work on your car at the track
2. Look ahead!
3. One cool down lap may not be enough to really cool down brakes.
A frustrating lap of Thunderhill
I accomplished my goal of breaking 2:20 (2:18:xx) so I loafed around the afternoon session on Friday and gave ride alongs for people. You should have tried to get out at the beginning of the white session to get a few good laps. Out of curiosity, what modifications do you have on your car?
06-24-2002, 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by jzr
Porterfield R4 pads
Motul brake fluid
225/245 Michelin Pilot Sport Cups (less sticky than Hoosiers) on stock wheels
Porterfield R4 pads
Motul brake fluid
225/245 Michelin Pilot Sport Cups (less sticky than Hoosiers) on stock wheels
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06-24-2002, 07:30 PM
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Thanks for the post, jzr! Shows how much mental commitment and concentration a really good lap time requires, and certainly you are there; a clear track would have come in handy!
06-27-2002, 08:43 PM
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Hey guys . just a question i recently drove my s2k in a autocross in orange county california. this is the first time i have driven my car this hard for a long period of time. on the skid pad my car oversteered real bad. any suggestions or help please. the car has tien type RA coilovers 18 work wheels with nitto 555's feels carbon fiber strut brace and brembo front brakes. dont know if there is something i can do to help this matter?????? helpp????????