Foot on the gas inducing oversteer
In conversation with a seasoned member, we hit upon the topic of oversteer and the toll it collects on cars, egos and possibly lives. This member opined that best way to correct a spin was to never do anything to cause it in the first place, but then we asked “how was one to know what not to do until they had spun, caused an error of monumental proportions, and come away wiser?”
It almost seems like our time spent driving is taken up by identifying and staying on the thin line that separates the car and driver’s abilities from the loss of traction. Keeping track of that thin line is forever a work in progress as the line changes based on driving conditions. How then does one deal with oversteer and correct for it? We think oversteer is bound to happen sooner or later to everyone, but it is the ones that are prepared that will be unfazed.
If you are reading this, chances are that you have recently come into possession of the car and want to learn how to enjoy driving it without breaking the wallet and pretty much anything else, as you should. At a point when most car manufacturers engineer understeer into a car, Honda went balls to the wall in designing a car that can oversteer on demand as a proper roadster should. The fact is we perceive understeer to be something that can be handled or corrected and yet all perception and logic goes out the window at the first hint of the rears kicking out.
So the solution to correct a spin is pretty much to adopt the same kind of calm mindset as one would exhibit in correcting understeer. It must become second nature to you just as you would upshift, downshift, brake or accelerate. Granted, oversteer is relatively more complex and requires more practice, but the fact is the human mind can be taught to handle it and come out of it intact. Oversteer can also be used as a tool once you have attained a level of mastery, help you control understeer, and not only help you set a fast time, but also enjoy the process of doing so.
Pointing the car in the direction of travel after correcting
Power oversteer occurs in a corner under acceleration when the rear tires break loose. Visualize the following scenario: you are turning left into a corner, Your foot is on the gas causing the rear tires to break lose and push to the right while tucking the front wheels in the opposite direction. Panic may cause you to slam the brakes, which would abruptly shift weight onto the front wheels thereby pivoting the car around to face the opposite direction, not something we want to do. The calmer driver would focus his eyes in the direction he intends to travel in and then lift on the throttle gently to shift a little weight onto the front wheels while at the same time turning the wheel smoothly in the direction of travel (your hands always follow your eyes so remember to look ahead), and once the front wheels have gained some traction, accelerate gently back into the planned direction.
Trailing-throttle oversteer or lift-throttle oversteer is caused when you are accelerating into a corner and mid-corner lift your foot off the gas pedal and start to feel the rear tires breaking lose. This is often caused by entering a corner too fast so its best to avoid unless you have some practice. Once practiced this can be used to combat understeer and get the car pointed in a more proper line towards where you intend to go. However when it happens inadvertently, one must step on the gas gently while turning the wheel in a smooth gradual motion towards the direction of travel.
One can also cause the rear to snap out by breaking harder while turning. The key is to start easing your foot off the brake pedal as you start to turn the wheel or trail brake. But that is another skill for another story.
The above may sound very simplistic and it could very well be second nature for those with natural talent. But even the average driver can understand and learn how to handle oversteer. It takes practice, and lots of it under the watchful eye of an instructor. In due course the fear of oversteer will diminish as one’s knowledge and experience grows.
Please be sure to sign up for an AutoX or SOLO event and listen to every word your instructor says. More importantly never forget to always keep your eyes pointed at where you want to go and not at whats in front of you. This season is as good as any for all of us to understand and embrace oversteer and we hope you start thinking about it.
Now that you’ve read the above, do you still fear oversteer? If yes, are you willing to try conquering your fear?
Tip of the hat to energetic for pics, video and suggestions.
NOTE: S2KI welcomes the opinions of its members on the S2000 and on all topics related to the S. Should you feel the creative urge to pen a few words then by all means do so and PM Energetic, JulieU, Aashish2, Onehots2k OR send us links to what you would like us to write about and we will feature you (or your community) on the S2KI Home Page.
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on Mar 30th, 2011 at 2:55 am
Ener very nice article.
on Mar 30th, 2011 at 4:29 am
Isn’t a bit of power oversteer why we bought the car
I do believe at least one track day (HPDE) should be mandatory for owning an S!
on Mar 30th, 2011 at 5:35 am
Well written and informative.
However the only way to learn to deal with this is to practice in a safe environment ( HPDE) as Tadashi says.
It’s not really hard to learn , it’s just that it’s counter to initial involuntary reactions.
ie when you are in a corner and the rear starts to step out the intial reaction to a percieved lack of control is to get off the gas/and or step on the brake.
Dealing with oversteer correctly is a learned response.
on Mar 30th, 2011 at 7:11 am
Just had some oversteer yesterday (raining + crappy tires + S = crazy). I really don’t like having it on public streets. I’d love to play with it on a track, but I still get panicky when it happens. Though, after driving the S for a couple years and in many a downpour as well as on completely iced up roads (personally watched 3 collisions), I really have learned to stay calm when the back end starts roaming.
I think handling oversteer is more about not panicking than anything else. If you just relax and drive like it isn’t happening, I find it tends to get back in line when it’s done playing.
on Mar 30th, 2011 at 9:31 am
One of the first s2k owners who tracks his car quite a bit spun a couple weekends ago from what looks like throttle lift so it’s not a simple case of learning what not to do, shxt happens.
Now I personally believe it was his setup that contributed to it but that doesnt seem to be adressed by this article.
on Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
@alex – its an article, not a book.
Some things people have to learn for themselves. Trial and error.
on Mar 30th, 2011 at 6:05 pm
the oversteer complaints about the S seem pretty trivial to me. my first car had ~450ft-lb of tq at 2000rpm. i have had about 2hrs of track time so far (more in 2 weeks! excite!) and never once experienced any sort of unexpected oversteer. i did spin once, but it was my fault, not the S.
abrupt inputs + turning late due + going too fast into a corner will produce this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoAsGYg8UC8
driving correctly will not.
on Mar 31st, 2011 at 7:40 am
Alex is right , it’s not learned from reading about it or watching vids.
Learned in a by doing in a thoughtful manner in a controlled environment.
Good instruction helps.
on Mar 31st, 2011 at 10:20 am
When i first bought the car with pretty bald tires and in the winter…I saved myself from spinnig out of control while just making a left turn from a stop…Good thing to learn
on Mar 31st, 2011 at 11:40 am
best way I got into learming this, is a beatup 240sx in winter w good tires…. at first it can be stressing to loose control but once you practice a bit, it is pretty easy to gain confidence and make like oversteering faster is normal situation… in anything, Skillz are due to practice, born talents never achieve the perfection without practice. keep practicing and know your limits. know your car limits, and merge the two of them for a better driving experience
on Mar 31st, 2011 at 8:33 pm
Very nice article, something that every member should read regardless of experience. =]
on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 6:21 pm
Great article, hope you don’t mind if I add a few observations.
I’m a new chum to S2Ks, & here, but as an old bloke I think I can see why some younger folk have trouble with over steer.
First there is a big difference between over steer & rear end breakaway, over steer only needs to be controlled with throttle, breakaway requires correction by steering wheel.
As an old bloke, I learnt to drive in a 30s Morris, a 40s Singer, & my first new car was a 1960 Simca. All three had rear end breakaway, at the slightest of curves. They had cross ply tyres, & low cornering power. What they didn’t have was power, so they didn’t spit me off into the shrubbery if I was clumsy with my right foot.
I had the advantage of learning how to correct rear end breakaway at low speeds, low inertia, & low power. By the time I got my Morgan +4 my hands could control rear end breakaway automatically, with no mental input from me. All I had to learn was how to control over steer now I had some power, [especially power weight ratio, which the S2K has in abundance]. By the time I was racing a Brabham throttle control, & thus over steer control was also automatic. My hands & feet had corrected most problems before my head even noticed.
You younger folk, brought up on front wheel drive have a lot to learn, in a hurry when you get into a read drive car for the first time. With high power to weight ratio, you have a car that will bite you if you get clumsy, & why shouldn’t you be clumsy as a learner?
I bought an old 80 BHP ute, & slashed a track in the grass in a paddock for my kids to learn how to drive, where mistakes didn’t hurt. They wore out 2 RWD paddock bashers learning, they loved it so much. A bit of a tail slide holds no fear for them.
I wish all new rear wheel drive drivers could do some time with low power, & low risk.
on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 10:14 pm
so I’ve been the proud owner of my s2000 since August and have been to one AutoX event (practice) so far… I spun out 3 times –
I obviously have a lot to learn! In thinking back to what happened, what bothers me is that several times I felt the rear start to go and was able to correct, but the 3 times I spun out I didn’t even feel it coming! I guess it will come with time, but would love to hear suggestions on gaining practice outside of an acutal event, and without risking damage to my car on the regular roads…
on Apr 8th, 2011 at 4:29 pm
Honda girl, see if you can gain access to a skidpan in your area.
Here a couple of clubs have access to the police driver training one, & have fun training days regularly. They are a good money spinner for our club.
These things are so slippery that you learn to be very gentle, very quickly, & have lots of fun doing it.
on Dec 5th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
I’ve noticed there are significant advantages with toe-in under load condition, just before leading to snap oversteer.
Lotus Elise exhibits this behaviour to push the threashold grip to the highest possible level before completely failing on grip. some F1 cars exhibit this level of suspension tuning. Take a look at how Aryton Senna is able to work his twitching so flawlessly. Our Ap1/ Ap2 also have a tendancy to “twitch” at the rear for very specific reasons:
Consider the last 8,9,10 of driving limits, as Tsuchiya describes the approaching limit on a S2000. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,(8,9,10) where 8,9,10 is the area where the limit approaches very quick and 1 through 7 is progressively linear.
toe in under compression does offer some advantages, if there where not much toe-in condition, the rear would progressively slide. And Slide progression (breakaway) deviates from the driving line, because your entering a drift. Toe-in prevents slide progression so as to make the ability to trace a tighter line. Tighter line gives your AP1/AP2 more opportunity to find more strategy on the track with increased limits for different lines; and of course passing opportunities.
Below is simply an opinion on the handling limits of the vehice, to best describe and share with everyone I’ve placed numerical values on what I would consider a standard AP1 handling limit:
Variables
(High performance tires only 225,155 17′s; ecstas, direzzas etc.)
7
If your driving at 7, your driving a fairly comfortable line and there is room available to explore the limits; comfortably.
8
A little edgy, 8 is a good area to be practising safely without the snap oversteer. modulation is attainable at this limit. driving at 8 limit is a excellent area
9
This is the level where the AP1 car, shows you what the Ap1 is capable of, for the more experienced drivers, these drivers ie autox, track drivers should be able to take the Ap1 chassis performance to this area. You will also find seasons instructors and competative racers driving in this realm. Most professional drivers should find themselves approach this limit.
This is where suspension tuning, alignment, driver style, tire compound play a critical role in determining the limit behaviours. All combinations either play and construct better handling or worse.
10
9.9/10 times, personally I’ve lost control of the modulating at the absolute limit of the S2000 (at least attemping), let alone being able to approach 9 and stay on 9, not even speaking of 10.
The character and behaviour of the AP1 becomes exponentially sensitive to even the most minute input of throttle, steering, etc. Which it will require an exponentially a higher level of driver to maximize it’s true potential.
Driving the S2000 At this level requires more than concentration, experience and skill. It requires instinct of a true driving champion to tame the S2000 here. Nascar, F1, F2, F3, Autocross, Drift Competators, Highly experienced driving instructors, or drivers who’ve been driving for a number of years on the circuit.
I’ve sat with instructors driving at this limit (increadably scary) whom still loose precision and balance. Every S2K owner I know and nearly every s2k owner (on here) that has explored the limits has probably seen the flash of 10, and snap oversteer; has had this experience at least once, quoted above.
At 10 is where the S2000 becomes a driving instrument so precise, so sharp, that very few vehicles at this limit can show a driver what they are made of. The Lotus Elise and Honda S2000 would be the only exception to any production car. All other vehicles, yes literally, are setup to give the driver feedback, progressive breakaway, understeer controllability etc; driver skill requirement is quite not necessary:
Yes I would say the S2K roadster is nearly the only roadster capable of being **truly** driven even by the best circuit drivers in the world; Kurasawa, Tsuchiya, F1 drivers, GT3/500, Lemans, NASCAR or any registered motorsport. The Lotus has already achieved this, in a well-mannered exotic. The S2000 simply approaches this area too and has nearly the ultimate razor sharpness of the Lotus Elise.
If you can drive the S2000 at limit, it is possible to drive any production vehicle in the world.