Another ver 2 Kraftwerks C38-81 install
01-31-2015, 09:27 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Another ver 2 Kraftwerks C38-81 install
I finished my install back in November, but was holding out as a surprise for a spring event. But with all of the recent interest & buyers of this kit, I thought it was irresponsible not to share my information, experience, & tips before then. I'm a long winded guy, bear wtih me... 
I installed the Kraftwerks v2.2 (my own designation - c38-81 blower kit with their redesigned pulley sizes and redesigned upper mount) in November, with the help of another mechanic-friend. Now that I've had some time with it, I just wanted to offer my thoughts.
I know that many of my comments will sound harsh and negative. My intention is not to drive anyone away from this product (which ultimately seems pretty damn good to me, and I DO recommend buying it), or to flame Kraftwerks. But I do think comments like these about ALL products these should be aired in public both to encourage mfr's to up their game, and also so that future buyers can be well informed about their purchase.
My full setup is as follows:
2004 AP2 2.2L non-DBW, 57k miles
bone stock, untouched engine
Kraftwerks C38-81 "v2.2" kit with larger revised 4 idler pulley system & revised upper mounts
Standard 100mm pulley
Grams 1000cc injectors
Grams 320lph fuel pump
NGK BKR8EIX spark plugs, 0.031" gap
AEM V2 EMS
AEM Wideband
stock TB, IM, header
Berk 70mm HFC
Invidia Q300 Dual 70mm exhaust Returned to stock exhaust
SOS Clutch
Comptech 8lb flywheel
Evans e-Tune (sorry no whp # available for now)
Let's start with the good news! In the end, the car is an absolute blast to drive. Quite frankly it has more power than I expected or think I really *need*. The overall design seems robust for the most part, the cogged belt doesn't seem noticably noisy (I don't have an old kit to compare to though) as some have been concerned about. Once I had the correct parts, the install went very well. I'd say an easy 12-16 hr job for 2 guys, with plenty of beer breaks.
I don't have dyno numbers as I e-tuned with Evans (a really great experience, review coming soon), but I peak right at 16 psi and on an upshift only drop to 10. Traction is marginal in 3rd on cool fall roads on Star Specs with about 25% left on them. First gear is a very touchy ~50% throttle adventure. FUN!!!!!
It has been very reliable so far. Other than the coupler popping off the TB until I got the correct size for it, there have been no issues or hiccups in about300 900 miles of use.
As most other KW owners seem to have, I had several issues with shipping & getting the right parts. First, it took them 2 weeks to ship a kit that was "in stock." I'm told this was because of annual inventory. After that wait, I received an AEM EMS for a Civic/RSX, was missing one of the idler pulleys, was missing a hose clamp, and had no instructions for some of the revised/upgraded parts that were included. Once I got in touch with someone at KW the missing parts were overnighted (two seperate times even) and updated documents were emailed, but it's ridiculous to not have a correct BOM & packing list to ensure this doesn't happen. Most of the sub-boxes in the package had two signatures on them for packing QC, so there really is no excuse. As a result of all of the above, it was about 3 weeks after I started to do the install that I finally got to drive it. It could all easily be done by two guys on a weekend with all the right parts in hand.
My other issues/complaints:
- The drive pulley that mounts on the crank pulley prevents the factory method for retightening the crank pulley bolt. The instructions offer no advice in this regard. After asking a few times they finally told me to just put it in gear and hold it with the brakes. this didn't seem to work for us but we didn't try it very hard. KW should include an install plate to facilitate this step.
- The fuel injectors were a VERY tight fit, and in the end we had to dump one of the o-rings which was too large to fit into the fuel rail. No leaks, but a clear picture of how it should be installed would go a long way here. We spent probably an hour trying to figure that out for what should have been a 10 minute job.
- My kit was shipped with a different upper bracket setup from what is shown in the parts list or install instructions. Some trial & error needed to figure out how it goes together and what bolts go where. More time needlessly wasted. See post #18 for PDF's of the revisions
- The mounts for the rotrex oil reservoir and filter seem a bit marginal in design. They are each held by a single bolt, with a lot of cantilever pressure on them. They will likely be fine in the long run, but I think the design could be more robust here.
- The parts explosion drawing is very outdated, not including the new pulley system or upper bracket revision. This made it very difficult to communicate back to KW what parts I was missing.
- Many of the pics used in the install guide are not very useful for explaining the step. Many times a simple arrow or highlight would go a long way, and in some cases (i.e. the fuel injectors) there was no picture at all where one would have greatly cleared up any confusion.
- In regards to the revised upper brackets, there is one on the intake manifold side that, being held by 1 bolt, isn't constrained well from rotation. Again it will probably be OK in the long run, but the design seems less than optimal. I'd like to know why they got away from the original design.
- The included coupler from the upper charge pipe to the throttle body was a straight 3". It is very loose on the tb while a 3-2.75 reducer is a perfect fit. Why not include that instead? See post #44 for what to buy
- The charge pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body reduces to 2.5" from the 3" IC exit, then increases in a bend to 3" for the second charge pipe, then has to reduce to 2.75" for the tb. This surely adds unnecessary pressure drop. It should be a continuous 2.75" run from the intercooler to the tb. KW said in another thread on here that they tested several confugurations and went with the kit version because it met their goals, so maybe I'm incorrect on this, but my intuition says otherwise.
- The basemap tune (which was emailed after the fact, rather than included in the box) would start but wouldn't idle for more than 20 seconds. Ever. After about a week they got back to me with one that "should work," but I never bothered with it as Evans got me off to a much better start days earlier.
- The bypass valve seems to be oriented incorrectly in their instructions. Clearly you wouldn't want boost pressure against the face of the piston in that valve, but their description seems to indicate this. There is no picture in the instructions, so it's hard to be certain. I installed with the skirt of the piston exposed to boost pressure (this is how it is installed in factory turbo German cars that use it).
- There were no tension adjustment instructions for the belt drive. Only "tighten the belt and go for it!" I started with what might be slightly loose and gradually tightened it over several days. So far so good...
- You splice two coolant hoses together next to the tb as part of the install. The instructions call for an included brass barb coupler to be used, but plastic was provided. I don't trust it and had to go buy a brass one instead. Cheap, but an unnecessary trip.
- AEM only includes patches of velcro for mounting their ECU. Alloy Craft makes a fantastic bracket to mount it using the factory points, as well as an optional USB extension kit. I ran my USB direct to the mesh pocket along the trans tunnel, coiled up, rather than using their extension kit.
- T-bolt clamps are cheap enough that they should be included from the start. Their worm clamps jumped on me several times during the install. I ordered t-bolt clamps from siliconeintakes after just a couple days because I want this to be reliable and don't trust the worm gear clamps. It only cost me about $40, surely would be much cheaper for them in bulk. See post #44 for what to buy & where.
- In regards to the Rotrex system design, their instructions differ from the Rotrex manual in a couple significant regards. First, their prime procedure is completely different from what Rotrex instructs. The KW method seems needlessly risky, and involves finally starting the car to pull fluid through if intermittent cranking doesn't do it first.
- Additionally, the reservoir is mounted slightly higher than the Rotrex manual explicity states is OK. I doubt it's a problem as we're only talking about an inch, but still the Rotrex manual is very specific about how their oil system is installed.
Poop-Dog has some additional thoughts in post #56
TL-DR:
- Buy t-bolt clamps for the whole system.I am working on a complete list. See post #44 for what to buy & where.
- Buy a 3" to 2.75" silicone reducer to connect the charge pipe to the throttle body
- Buy a 5/16" brass barbed splice for the coolant line next to the throttle body
- Buy the AEM EMS mount from Alloy Craft (PM them on here). Mounting an expensive ECM with velcro is stupid (shame on AEM for not including a better solution)
- Use the priming instructions in the Rotrex manual, not the KW manual!!
Don't take this kit off of your list because of this post! As I said, in the end I am very happy with the result, but you need to temper your expectations about the buying process!
I installed the Kraftwerks v2.2 (my own designation - c38-81 blower kit with their redesigned pulley sizes and redesigned upper mount) in November, with the help of another mechanic-friend. Now that I've had some time with it, I just wanted to offer my thoughts.
I know that many of my comments will sound harsh and negative. My intention is not to drive anyone away from this product (which ultimately seems pretty damn good to me, and I DO recommend buying it), or to flame Kraftwerks. But I do think comments like these about ALL products these should be aired in public both to encourage mfr's to up their game, and also so that future buyers can be well informed about their purchase.
My full setup is as follows:
2004 AP2 2.2L non-DBW, 57k miles
bone stock, untouched engine
Kraftwerks C38-81 "v2.2" kit with larger revised 4 idler pulley system & revised upper mounts
Standard 100mm pulley
Grams 1000cc injectors
Grams 320lph fuel pump
NGK BKR8EIX spark plugs, 0.031" gap
AEM V2 EMS
AEM Wideband
stock TB, IM, header
Berk 70mm HFC
SOS Clutch
Comptech 8lb flywheel
Evans e-Tune (sorry no whp # available for now)
Let's start with the good news! In the end, the car is an absolute blast to drive. Quite frankly it has more power than I expected or think I really *need*. The overall design seems robust for the most part, the cogged belt doesn't seem noticably noisy (I don't have an old kit to compare to though) as some have been concerned about. Once I had the correct parts, the install went very well. I'd say an easy 12-16 hr job for 2 guys, with plenty of beer breaks.
I don't have dyno numbers as I e-tuned with Evans (a really great experience, review coming soon), but I peak right at 16 psi and on an upshift only drop to 10. Traction is marginal in 3rd on cool fall roads on Star Specs with about 25% left on them. First gear is a very touchy ~50% throttle adventure. FUN!!!!!
It has been very reliable so far. Other than the coupler popping off the TB until I got the correct size for it, there have been no issues or hiccups in about
As most other KW owners seem to have, I had several issues with shipping & getting the right parts. First, it took them 2 weeks to ship a kit that was "in stock." I'm told this was because of annual inventory. After that wait, I received an AEM EMS for a Civic/RSX, was missing one of the idler pulleys, was missing a hose clamp, and had no instructions for some of the revised/upgraded parts that were included. Once I got in touch with someone at KW the missing parts were overnighted (two seperate times even) and updated documents were emailed, but it's ridiculous to not have a correct BOM & packing list to ensure this doesn't happen. Most of the sub-boxes in the package had two signatures on them for packing QC, so there really is no excuse. As a result of all of the above, it was about 3 weeks after I started to do the install that I finally got to drive it. It could all easily be done by two guys on a weekend with all the right parts in hand.
My other issues/complaints:
- The drive pulley that mounts on the crank pulley prevents the factory method for retightening the crank pulley bolt. The instructions offer no advice in this regard. After asking a few times they finally told me to just put it in gear and hold it with the brakes. this didn't seem to work for us but we didn't try it very hard. KW should include an install plate to facilitate this step.
- The fuel injectors were a VERY tight fit, and in the end we had to dump one of the o-rings which was too large to fit into the fuel rail. No leaks, but a clear picture of how it should be installed would go a long way here. We spent probably an hour trying to figure that out for what should have been a 10 minute job.
- My kit was shipped with a different upper bracket setup from what is shown in the parts list or install instructions. Some trial & error needed to figure out how it goes together and what bolts go where. More time needlessly wasted. See post #18 for PDF's of the revisions
- The mounts for the rotrex oil reservoir and filter seem a bit marginal in design. They are each held by a single bolt, with a lot of cantilever pressure on them. They will likely be fine in the long run, but I think the design could be more robust here.
- The parts explosion drawing is very outdated, not including the new pulley system or upper bracket revision. This made it very difficult to communicate back to KW what parts I was missing.
- Many of the pics used in the install guide are not very useful for explaining the step. Many times a simple arrow or highlight would go a long way, and in some cases (i.e. the fuel injectors) there was no picture at all where one would have greatly cleared up any confusion.
- In regards to the revised upper brackets, there is one on the intake manifold side that, being held by 1 bolt, isn't constrained well from rotation. Again it will probably be OK in the long run, but the design seems less than optimal. I'd like to know why they got away from the original design.
- The included coupler from the upper charge pipe to the throttle body was a straight 3". It is very loose on the tb while a 3-2.75 reducer is a perfect fit. Why not include that instead? See post #44 for what to buy
- The charge pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body reduces to 2.5" from the 3" IC exit, then increases in a bend to 3" for the second charge pipe, then has to reduce to 2.75" for the tb. This surely adds unnecessary pressure drop. It should be a continuous 2.75" run from the intercooler to the tb. KW said in another thread on here that they tested several confugurations and went with the kit version because it met their goals, so maybe I'm incorrect on this, but my intuition says otherwise.
- The basemap tune (which was emailed after the fact, rather than included in the box) would start but wouldn't idle for more than 20 seconds. Ever. After about a week they got back to me with one that "should work," but I never bothered with it as Evans got me off to a much better start days earlier.
- The bypass valve seems to be oriented incorrectly in their instructions. Clearly you wouldn't want boost pressure against the face of the piston in that valve, but their description seems to indicate this. There is no picture in the instructions, so it's hard to be certain. I installed with the skirt of the piston exposed to boost pressure (this is how it is installed in factory turbo German cars that use it).
- There were no tension adjustment instructions for the belt drive. Only "tighten the belt and go for it!" I started with what might be slightly loose and gradually tightened it over several days. So far so good...
- You splice two coolant hoses together next to the tb as part of the install. The instructions call for an included brass barb coupler to be used, but plastic was provided. I don't trust it and had to go buy a brass one instead. Cheap, but an unnecessary trip.
- AEM only includes patches of velcro for mounting their ECU. Alloy Craft makes a fantastic bracket to mount it using the factory points, as well as an optional USB extension kit. I ran my USB direct to the mesh pocket along the trans tunnel, coiled up, rather than using their extension kit.
- T-bolt clamps are cheap enough that they should be included from the start. Their worm clamps jumped on me several times during the install. I ordered t-bolt clamps from siliconeintakes after just a couple days because I want this to be reliable and don't trust the worm gear clamps. It only cost me about $40, surely would be much cheaper for them in bulk. See post #44 for what to buy & where.
- In regards to the Rotrex system design, their instructions differ from the Rotrex manual in a couple significant regards. First, their prime procedure is completely different from what Rotrex instructs. The KW method seems needlessly risky, and involves finally starting the car to pull fluid through if intermittent cranking doesn't do it first.
- Additionally, the reservoir is mounted slightly higher than the Rotrex manual explicity states is OK. I doubt it's a problem as we're only talking about an inch, but still the Rotrex manual is very specific about how their oil system is installed.
Poop-Dog has some additional thoughts in post #56
TL-DR:
- Buy t-bolt clamps for the whole system.
- Buy a 3" to 2.75" silicone reducer to connect the charge pipe to the throttle body
- Buy a 5/16" brass barbed splice for the coolant line next to the throttle body
- Buy the AEM EMS mount from Alloy Craft (PM them on here). Mounting an expensive ECM with velcro is stupid (shame on AEM for not including a better solution)
- Use the priming instructions in the Rotrex manual, not the KW manual!!
Don't take this kit off of your list because of this post! As I said, in the end I am very happy with the result, but you need to temper your expectations about the buying process!
02-01-2015, 04:33 AM
#3
Nice write up. Very informative to those in need. Any specific reason for the 320lph fuel pump? I only ask because we have basically the same setup minus the fuel pump and sc kit. My guess is that you are between 425-450 hp 
. I know the car is a blast to drive!
. I know the car is a blast to drive!
02-01-2015, 07:53 AM
#4
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Lots of good info here. I agree on using the rotrex priming instructions over the turn over style. I'm surprised about the basemap though mine runs amazing with it. Still waiting on some parts (exhaust etc) over winter so I can get a full tune!
Nice car and nice write up!
Nice car and nice write up!
02-01-2015, 09:04 AM
#5
Thread Starter
The one I bought included fuel & engine management.Lots of good info here. I agree on using the rotrex priming instructions over the turn over style. I'm surprised about the basemap though mine runs amazing with it. Still waiting on some parts (exhaust etc) over winter so I can get a full tune!
Nice car and nice write up!
Nice car and nice write up!
02-01-2015, 11:50 AM
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Thanks for the awesome write up. 
I can't tell from the pics, but did you have to trim the grill to fit with the intercooler? Also does your intercooler have the kraftwerks logo on it?
I can't tell from the pics, but did you have to trim the grill to fit with the intercooler? Also does your intercooler have the kraftwerks logo on it?
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02-01-2015, 12:55 PM
#9
Thread Starter
My IC does have the KW logo on it (I hate advertising), so I mounted the IC with the logo in back. The instructions say it's tilted to mount only one way, but it didn't really seem that way to me. There might be a very slight tilt to it, which is why I needed to trim that 1/4" off the inside of the bumper.
Removing the bumper cover isn't bad, though it's a little nerve wracking the first time. I've had mine off several times now so that was about a 5 min job for me. Just take your time and make sure you have all of the bolts out, then PULL!!
I didn't think the fuel pump install was very bad. Certainly not as bad as I feared, based on all the comments I've seen about it. Remove the windscreen from the top of the secret compartment. This will give you some extra space to work. Then unlatch the top and put it back just slightly, so give you some slack around the roll hoops to work. Now that I've done it once, I'm sure I could do the whole thing start to finish in under 30 min. Took about an hour the first time since I was taking my time to make sure I didn't screw it up.
02-01-2015, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ja_s2k' timestamp='1422823836' post='23489618
Thanks for the awesome write up.
I can't tell from the pics, but did you have to trim the grill to fit with the intercooler? Also does your intercooler have the kraftwerks logo on it?
I can't tell from the pics, but did you have to trim the grill to fit with the intercooler? Also does your intercooler have the kraftwerks logo on it?
My IC does have the KW logo on it (I hate advertising), so I mounted the IC with the logo in back. The instructions say it's tilted to mount only one way, but it didn't really seem that way to me. There might be a very slight tilt to it, which is why I needed to trim that 1/4" off the inside of the bumper.
Thanks for the info.
I don't care for the logo either so I will attempt to mount it backwards as well when time comes.
