Belkin623

I'm hoping and not hoping this turns into a huge thread.

I've never seen more than a handful of S2000's built for drifting. Obviously that is because they are naturally track cars; however, Miata's are quite similar and aren't too uncommon in the drift world. Why is this? The wheelbase and track width aren't too far off from each other when comparing these cars (first gen Miata at least). Granted, it would look sort of odd seeing an S2000 slide around the track.

I couldn't easily find the weight ratio of any Miata. Is the significant difference in weight the sole reason people choose the Miata over the S2000 for drifting? Looking at the basic specs, everything else can be drastically modified with mods, and of course not many drivers would have a serious drift car without some serious work on cars like these. So, the weight and dimensions are the only traits I could see as being the cause. Am I wrong?

I'm still a noob with cars in general; if there is something obvious that I'm just not getting, please shed some light on my stupidity.

'00-09 S2000: Wheelbase 2400mm, Front Track 1470mm, Rear Track 1510mm, Weight Ratio 49/51, Weight 2756 - 2764 lbs.
'91 Miata: Wheelbase 2266mm, Front Track 1410mm, Rear Track 1428mm, Weight Ratio ?, Weight 2070 lbs.

Billj747

Both are horrible drift cars due to their short wheelbases and their even weight distribution likely does not help either, nor does their lack of torque.

350Zs on the other hand make for fantastic drift cars.

Adrenalize

And I think the price of a used Miata has a lot to do with it.

S2020

http://world.honda.com/news/2009/4090127S2000/
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...ave+been+sold+

110,000 S2000 world wide
900,000 miatas in US alone (

10% of a larger number is more than 10% of smaller number.
simple math

Mr.E.G.

This will not be a popular opinion, but it's the truth: Drifting is unhandling. It is the ability to get the car out of shape either through an excess of torque such that the slip angle of the rear tires vastly exceeds the slip angle of the front tires, or it is produced by exploiting weight imbalance (that either exists naturally due to a poor weight distribution, or one that is created dynamically by upsetting the car's balance), or some combination thereof. Well, guess what. Cars like the s2000 are designed to do all of those things poorly in an interest of doing another thing, handling and roadholding capability, exceptionally well.

An s2000 is a bad platform for drifting for all of those reasons. There's a reason that one can drift a Buick Riviera easier than an s2000, and it says nothing good about the Riviera. Drifters will argue until they're blue in the face that their cars do indeed handle well. Bollocks. They do one of the elements of handling well enough, and that is predictability. But being predictably bad is still predictable, mind you.

Billj747

I respectfully disagree. Every dynamic of driving from weight transfer to steering inputs is the same for going fast as well as drifting and both require balancing the car on a fine edge.

Your description is overly simplistic and not quite accurate, especially for professional drifting, where car setup and rear grip is very important. In order to change the rotation and trajectory of a car while drifting, the rear needs to hook up at the right time, otherwise the car will continue on its initial path like on ice and the driver isnt in control.

Modern pro drift cars spend a ton of time on setup and rear grip and overcome this with torque and ever increasing amounts of power. There's a reason large displacement V8s have almost eradicated the original small displacement and FI powerplants that started drifting popularity.

I somewhat take by my original comment about weight distribution because the BMW M3 is a fantastic handling and drifting car and it has a 50/50 wright distribution like a Miata & S2000.

The 997 & especially the 991 GT3 are surprisingly great drift cars if you've ever watched a Chris Harris video, and having just tracked a 991 GT3, they are phenominal sideways, and a 996TT wasn't bad either. The 458/Speciale has a similar 40/60 weight distribution and is one of the best handling cars in the world right now and a fabulous car to drift. The 430 wasn't as good but wasn't terrible either.

Tyler McQuarrie ran a short wheelbases 993 Porsche in pro drifting and did quite well. With enough time and money you can make anything work but he said no other drift car could keep up with him coming off a corner with all of the rearward weight transfer of the 911.

So there's a lot more to drifting than saying that they don't handle well. I would say some key components are wheelbase and torque, of which neither the s2000 or miata have much of. That does not mean you can't drift these cars because i have drifted both a lot and have owned 4 miatas personally. They are not the best drift platforms and are more twitchy than cars with longer wheelbases. It all depends on your goals...

Mr.E.G.

On one hand I disagree with you and I intend to explain why. On the other hand, I think we're saying some of the same things, though it may not be apparent to you.

Expect a long-winded diatribe as soon as I get in front of a computer. ;-)

Belkin623

Wow. These are great explanations. I wasn't expecting this at all! This is all very enlightening, except for one thing that I've always been confused about. A 350z does have a good amount of power, but with it's ridiculous weight, it isn't able to use it's power to it's potential, so they barely beat S2000's (if both are stock). What I don't get is how 350z's are some of the most popular drift cars if they are so heavy. Regardless of the weight distribution. Of course, you can always cut weight from the factory, but I assume they still have a lot of unecessary weight. Also, in general terms, without thinking of any of the leading factors, what is typically the ideal weight distribution?

Is the short wheelbase of the Miata the reason they are always only power sliding around big corners in their drift videos?

Besides the obvious 240, what would be your suggestion for the best drift car for a cheap price? I would love to build a drift car in the future, but I hate sticking in with the crowd.

Bullwings

I think people are missing the obvious here.

It's not necessarily about weight and outright lateral grip.

I'd say the biggest factor is predictability of breakaway characteristics and how broad the window is for holding at a specified grip limit.

The s2000 is known for it's twitchiness and knife edge handling at the limit. To the uninitiated, the break away characteristics would be described as abrupt with snap oversteer tendencies.

I would venture to say that BMWs are not known for out right grip; however, they tend to have more progressive break away characteristics. They let you feel the slip angles and allow you to play within a broader window of limit exploration. I haven't driven a 350z, but the handling/grip characteristics sound somewhat similar to 3-series bmws.

I've never tried to slide a miata around. The one time that I drove one at an autocross, it had so much grip and so little torque and power that it never cross my mind to even try driving it any other way aside from as a "grip go-kart" like car.

Billj747

350Zs arent THAT heavy, altgough theyre listed at 3,200-3,600lbs.

You're now asking 2 questions: why 350s aren't as fast as S2Ks and why they differ in drifting. To answer the first, the S2K I a phenominal handling and performing car, due to its proper suspension layout, even weight distribution, and weigh 300-700lbs less than the 350 while running similar tire widths. The Miata is great too but it does not have as much power, its chassis isn't as stiff, and it has smaller tires. Throw a F20 in a Miata with some chassis bracing and similar width tires and that would be an interesting comparison.

I agree with BullWings that break-away characteristics is important and the 350 has great break away characteristics and a lot of anti-squat in its suspension geometry that hurts putting power down, but makes it easier to break the tires loose. Less weight in the rear (distribution wise) also makes breaking the tires loose easier. Both the 350Z and 240s are nose-heavy cars and have longer wheelbases, which makes their rotation easier to control. But as I said before, at higher levels of drifting, rear grip is important, especially with higher powered cars, so setting up 240s & 350s comes down to finding rear grip.

Without making a lot of power, 240s and 350s are great platforms for their balance, wheelbase, and suspension design. E36 & E46 M3s (and base 3 series, possibly with LS-swaps) are great platforms as well, but you'll spend a lot of time replacing rubber bushings, then they are amazing. Pontiac GTOs are heavy but great if you want to gut them, and I would seriously consider a Foxbody Mustang on up to current cars. Mustangs are CHEAP to modify and make a lot of power, and my 1990 fox was just an absolute riot of a drift car and I still miss it. Although 2005+ are way stiffer/better chassis.

You CAN drift anything, it just depends on what you want. I'm also not sure the comment about miatas drifting long corners because sustained drifts in long corners are more difficult in short wheelbase cars with no power.

While you can put crappy, skinny tires on anything to reduce grip, I would prefer to have a decent sized/performance tire and the power it takes to overcome it rather than simply throwing crappy tires on a car to make it drift easier, because you'll have less control and that's the cheese ball way of doing it. You won't need to put much into adding power to a GTO, Mustang, 350Z, or M3.