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ITBs and the S2000 looking for some help!

#1 User is offline   grantedS2k 

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  Posted 22 January 2007 - 04:14 AM

I'm thinking I want to keep the NA-ness of the S2000, so I'm looking at getting some Individual Throttle Bodies.

I've done some research and I know I will need a higher output fuel pump and a programmable ECU (for this I will use the AEM EMS 1052u) for starters. I will replace the exhuast manifold with the Ricks item, and I'll worry about the test pipe later!

Has anyone who has actually installed ITBs got some useful tips/techniques/base maps to help me with my quest?
Ex-S2000-owner, now a family man who is considering a come-back! :-)

#2 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 01:39 PM

:hello:

You do not need a fuel pump, but you will need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, AEM EMS with wideband (prefferably), and some patience. What kit are you looking at? There's a few of us here running ITBs....I think we'll be able to help out with any specific questions you may have. :)
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#3 User is offline   rcodea 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 01:50 PM

How many/who is running the ITBs on their 2.2? Are they getting good improvments? What kind of numbers?

thanks!

Ryan

#4 User is offline   s2konroids 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 01:58 PM

These dont give good gains for the research i have done, 10-15bhp
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#5 User is offline   rcodea 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:53 PM

true, but thats a 10% gain, not many other parts can show that kind of improvment for about $1500

plus the throttle responce and the sound the air pulsing makes is well worth it!

Ryan

#6 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 03:08 PM

Quote

These dont give good gains for the research i have done, 10-15bhp

Hmmm....your research skills are a little lacking then, if you didn't bother to read my sig....+41 rwhp in the midrange....

#7 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 03:10 PM

BTW, here's a good link to a good ITB review :LOL:

http://www.s2ki.com/...pic=436322&st=0

#8 User is offline   s2konroids 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 04:51 PM

yes but thats not ITB on there own

#9 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 05:53 PM

no...half that is ITB's on they're own...but since you can't run ITB's w/o a standalone, in essence, it IS due to the ITB's, since the ECU is a necessary component to running ITB's :p

#10 User is offline   Johnny Sack 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 06:21 PM

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no...half that is ITB's on they're own...but since you can't run ITB's w/o a standalone, in essence, it IS due to the ITB's, since the ECU is a necessary component to running ITB's :p

:iagree:
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#11 User is offline   shamowfski 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:23 PM

wildcard do you have any pics of your filter setup, or is it top secret?
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#12 User is offline   zbrewha863 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:32 PM

Yeah wildcardtrd, I think your experience with these has really made me want to go ITB now instead of turbo -- it seems much more in line with the way the S2000 was built and intended than going turbo does on the car, and I don't personally like superchargers.

You have great midrange, a really great driveable powerband (which is a large improvement over the stock S2000 powerband) that should be kicked way up with a header and a good exhaust, on one hand I would definately go with something more high-flowing than a Comptech exhaust, but on the other hand Twiztid has almost 300whp out of an F20C running a Supersprint exhaust (and I think the stock exhaust manifold) and said in one thread before that the exhaust ports aren't even big enough to really benefit much from going to a larger header without doing machine work, I think the headers that gain power just benefit from better-designed piping if his research is correct.

I know you said funds are tight and you're probably going to leave it as-is for now, but you might end up being one of the big-hp NA guys in FL within a short time frame.
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#13 User is offline   Tyraid2K 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:46 PM

yes but can you hold an idle in the morning?
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#14 User is offline   kenstyle 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 12:22 AM

Speaking of ITBs (and I don't mean to get OT), but does anyone know or think if it is feasible for ITBs to be fitted into an '06+ s2k, keeping in mind of the DBW/ECU changes?

I mean I would have to swap out the stock ECU anyway for a standalone, but I don't know how ITBs could work with the revised DBW throttle system :confused:

#15 User is offline   Mr. Francesco 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 01:06 AM

ITB's are great if you have the time to really get them running right. Once I get some money ill have some hayward's ;)
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#16 User is offline   grantedS2k 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 03:48 AM

I'm looking at the TWM ITB kit, with an AEM EMS 1052u. Its going to mated with a Ricks header and an HKS Hi-Power exhaust.

What fuel pressure regulator should I be looking at? Does one not come with the kit?

The only concern I have is the lack of filter for these things! Won't the ITBS suck in everything?

And what about the quality of air that is fed to the ITBs? The engine is located at the back of the bay and away from any "good" airflow ...(compared to having a snorkel behind the right headlamp)

I'm aware of the the noise, mid-range gains and improved engine response, and thats what makes this so exciting!



#17 User is offline   grantedS2k 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 03:53 AM

Quote

...but I don't know how ITBs could work with the revised DBW throttle system...

Man, thats a good question!

A DBW system has a potentiometer on the accelerator pedal and feeds the signal electronically to a motor which in turn opens the butterfly in the throttle body.

The ITB kits are purely mechanical at this stage, so I think you may be out of luck on both the ITBs, but I'm pretty sure you can still go FI!

I could be wrong, but my research tells me I'm not!

#18 User is offline   Mr. Francesco 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 07:20 AM

Quote

I'm looking at the TWM ITB kit, with an AEM EMS 1052u. Its going to mated with a Ricks header and an HKS Hi-Power exhaust.

What fuel pressure regulator should I be looking at? Does one not come with the kit?

The only concern I have is the lack of filter for these things! Won't the ITBS suck in everything?

And what about the quality of air that is fed to the ITBs? The engine is located at the back of the bay and away from any "good" airflow ...(compared to having a snorkel behind the right headlamp)

I'm aware of the the noise, mid-range gains and improved engine response, and thats what makes this so exciting!

Hayward is quality, they are designed well and work with most of the oem componants.

You can buy air socks for them to filter out some of the debris, you dont have to run them 100% open. Lance @ hayward can get them for you, I think they are $90.00

I wouldnt run an HKS exhaust with the ITB's. If your going n/a you should look into a 70mm single header back system, or 63mm single exhaust. Single will get you the most power.

#19 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 08:11 AM

Quote

wildcard do you have any pics of your filter setup, or is it top secret?

I'm picking up a set of filters from VolkGT-N this friday, but I know an inside guy at K&N that's gonna research some angles and get back to me :LOL:

#20 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 08:14 AM

Quote

Yeah wildcardtrd, I think your experience with these has really made me want to go ITB now instead of turbo -- it seems much more in line with the way the S2000 was built and intended than going turbo does on the car, and I don't personally like superchargers.

You have great midrange, a really great driveable powerband (which is a large improvement over the stock S2000 powerband) that should be kicked way up with a header and a good exhaust, on one hand I would definately go with something more high-flowing than a Comptech exhaust, but on the other hand Twiztid has almost 300whp out of an F20C running a Supersprint exhaust (and I think the stock exhaust manifold) and said in one thread before that the exhaust ports aren't even big enough to really benefit much from going to a larger header without doing machine work, I think the headers that gain power just benefit from better-designed piping if his research is correct.

I know you said funds are tight and you're probably going to leave it as-is for now, but you might end up being one of the big-hp NA guys in FL within a short time frame.

Thanks man :hello:
I've actually changed my mind on the exhaust, again. If I don't go with a T1R 70 sparrow, I'm going to make a 70mm dual with either Tanabe or Megan mufflers, haven't decided yet. After the exhaust, I'm going to try to score a J's header. That should round me off nice for awhile ;)

I'm gonna bug some people to get my that exhaust by my birthday, so look for some new dyno's from me around April :)

#21 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 08:16 AM

Quote

yes but can you hold an idle in the morning?

Yup....fixed all my cold start issues. I had to extend my fuel pump prime value to 10 seconds to fully pressurize the rail, and advance my idle timing up a few degrees. Fires up first time, everytime, and idles about 850-950 until warm, where it sits at 1100 comfortably all day long. I can now drive it immediately after start up...no more waiting for the engine to warm up :LOL:

I sat in my driveway for about 6 hours one saturday, and retuned the crap out of my start and idle load cells. The car runs amazing now.

#22 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 08:27 AM

Quote

I'm looking at the TWM ITB kit, with an AEM EMS 1052u. Its going to mated with a Ricks header and an HKS Hi-Power exhaust.

What fuel pressure regulator should I be looking at? Does one not come with the kit?

The only concern I have is the lack of filter for these things! Won't the ITBS suck in everything?

And what about the quality of air that is fed to the ITBs? The engine is located at the back of the bay and away from any "good" airflow ...(compared to having a snorkel behind the right headlamp)

I'm aware of the the noise, mid-range gains and improved engine response, and thats what makes this so exciting!

If you go with TWM, be sure to get one of the newer kits. The FPR that comes with the older kits is not vacuum dependant, so makes tuning a biotch. The new ones are much better, from what I hear. I'm running an Aeromotive FPR. It's a very expensive piece, but the quality is 2nd to none.

ITB's don't suck as much air as you'd think they do...bear in mind, at full song, the F20C draws roughly 325 cfm of air. (9000 rpm * 1997 cc) / 2 (4 stroke only draws in air every other revolution). Divide that among 4 runners, you're looking at 81.25 cfm per runner, or a face velocity (based on my throttles being 50mm diameter) of 27.08 feet per minute each(math nerds check my math please). You can't barely feel that amount of airflow. The advantage to ITB's is the even, linear flow of air to each combustion chamber, and the lengthened distance of the injectors from the cylinders. On most ITB kits, the injectors are located almost directly behind the throttle plates. This provides much more plenum volume for the fuel to atomize into the air stream.

As for the quality of the air...you are right, it's not as "cool" or "clean" as a scoop would be right from the front of the car, but based on what I've seen while tuning my car, with the hood vents in place, my IAT's hover between 5 and 20 degrees above ambient, depending on highway cruising or sitting in traffic with my A/C on. Any car guy knows that having IAT's in the 60's and 70's for your engine is the equivalent of giving a redbull to a toddler. :LOL:

#23 User is offline   icemans2k02 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 08:51 AM

this is seems pretty awesome and a possibly route since i just sold the supercharger

#24 User is offline   wildcardtrd 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 09:22 AM

I would like to add a disclaimer to those of you considering ITB's...

They require ALOT of tuning to run right, so make sure you know someone who's GOOD at it.
They require a stand alone ECU. If you get the AEM EMS, your coolant temp readout on the dash will no longer function, and the coolant temp and iat calibration tables that ship with the ecu are wrong, no matter what AEM tells you. You will need to recalibrate them.
No ITB kits are direct bolt-in. None of them. I don't care what they say. You will have to fabricate various pieces to get it all to work. In my case, we had to fabricate a TPS bracket, throttle cable linkage bracket, vacuum block brackets, and fuel lines.

The use of larger injectors are mandatory. Stock injectors simply can't flow enough w/o being pushed into unsafe duty cycles.

Expect to spend 1-2 days install, a few good hours on the dyno, and at least a full day street tuning the part throttle, idle, and startup cells. I'll be more than happy to help anyone out, since I've been though enough pain and agony over getting these right...the knowledge I'd be able to give you will greatly increase your enjoyment of this type of product.

It is NOT an easily reversible project. You may need to cut fuel lines, coolant lines, or extend coolant lines. The dissasembly part of the process will leave you terrified of where all the little misc. bullshit would need to go, should you ever decide to go back. Make sure you only take on this project if you fully know what you are getting into, and realize that it's pretty much a permanent modification. Removing 60 lbs of Prime Honda engineering, and replacing it with 8 lbs of aftermarket engineering, is an unnerving task. Do so at your own risk.

#25 User is offline   ITBs2k 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 11:14 AM

Quote

I know you said funds are tight and you're probably going to leave it as-is for now, but you might end up being one of the big-hp NA guys in FL within a short time frame.

Not if I have anything to say about it! :LOL:

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