Honda 6 Speed Manual Dilemma
01-06-2008, 05:56 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Honda 6 Speed Manual Dilemma
I think I have spent the past 10 years driving a Honda in some sort, whether it was a beat up Civic, S2000, 5HP Honda kart, Atom, and now the newer Accords and Civic Si. It is sometimes a love/hate.
The past few models I have been in namely the S2000 heavily revolved around the trans and diff being so delicate. But it's not the only model.
Myself and group of other on my team got together to do this article.
Which will be on automotivearticles in the next few days.
But hopefully we will see some fixes for the troubled owners sooner rather than later.
Honda 6 Speed Manual Dilemma
"Can't Replicate the Problem."
Written By: Mark Sanew, Savagegeese.com, Automotivetech.org, Greg Nelson, Abram Zednoski.
Editor: Jaroslaw Szymanski
Mobile Version of Article
Story:
Not long ago in the adolescence of the compact car market were Hondas running around with intakes, headers, body kits and the required spoiler generating 50,000lbs of rear down force. The automotive market and drivers have changed remarkably in the past 10 years. In that time we have seen the dawn and now near death of the large SUV. We have seen cars of all makes and models grow in size, safety and power. And now as the world debates energy changes and policies we have an evolving car market.
But this article is not going to discuss any of that. We are here to take a look the current lineup of the vehicles manufactured with Honda 6 speed manual transmission. Every car group has a few models that create a buzz that fills internet search engines with data for analysts to observe. Be it the GM ZR-1, Ferrari 430 Scuderia, or the Honda Civic Type R, enthusiasts love new sports cars.
In the 90s some of the North American market had a taste of the Acura NSX and the Integra Type R. While millions had their heart in Civic's and Integras. The message boards filled up with questions on how to make these cars faster and more extreme. Fast forward to year 2000 and Honda has provided the market with the S2000, a more powerful Civic Si with limited slip and 6 Speed manual transmission and near 300HP versions of the TL and Accords.
This past decade has been one exciting time for Honda owners. But before we send Honda a box of chocolates and flowers we must address a nagging issue that owners all over the internet have been posting and blogging about. The issue is that of the 6 speed manual transmission problems in several major Honda models. The complaints range from gear grinds, difficulty shifting, and loss of gears all together.
The Problem:
Our experience started in 2000 with the Honda S2000 praised as having one of the worlds best feeling gearbox. But as the number of owners increased so did the cries of frequent 2nd and 3rd gear grinds and owners losing 5th or 6th gear all together. As time advanced owners of the car had learned from hard core owners and mechanics that skipping gears such as shifting from 3rd to 5th could cause loss of a synchronizer on that gear. Or that the Honda transmission fluid was not up to the task in wear protection for the long term. Owners tampered with different trans fluids, fluid levels and shifting techniques. As the 2002 model rolled in manufacturing improvements were said to be made but no one could really decide what they were. In 2004 the transmission synchronizers received an update in materials in hopes to alleviate balky shifting and grinds. As owners brought in their cars to the dealers the same story like a broken record was heard in many cases, dealers suspecting abuse or refusing service due to modifications.
To take an unbiased approach there were hundreds of stories we had read where some of these owners were very negligent. One day on the message board they were posting on how they accomplished a massive burnout in front a Corvette and the next day they lost a gear or clutch. We understand that many sports car owners of all makes and models like to drive and many don't want to leave their car stock so dealers tend to be very cautious about honoring warranties. But moving away from the S2000 problems we come to the Honda Accord released in 2003 for the first time with a 6 speed manual. Also the nearly brand new 2006 Honda Civic Si also equipped for the first time with a 6 speed manual gearbox.
Trying to Fix the Problem:
There are other models such as the Acura TL and TSX with 6 speed transmissions and much of what will be discussed will apply more so to the TL. One of the females in the group loved the Accord Coupe and decided to buy a new 2006 EX with 6 Speed and navigation. After test driving older models and being upset with clutch take-up it seems the 2006 and 2007 models did not suffer from the issue so the purchase was made. After 1000 miles 3rd gear seemed difficult to engage or sometimes refused to engage at all and popped out when attempts were made. The female owner suspected it may just need to be broken in further. At 3000 miles the issues continued and the first trip was made to MotorWerks in Barrinton, Illinois . This dealer has a good reputation in terms of repair and sales and most likely due to them selling higher end vehicles such as Porsche, BMW, and Maybach. After the usual day in the shop the owner got the call from the service manager saying that "They could not replicate the issue." This is a quote most Honda owners of these types of cars dread and have heard often.
At 10,000 miles the problem continues and the second attempt at dropping it off at the dealer returned the same result, nothing. Frustrated and upset the owner asked friends and a local Honda mechanic and they pointed her to a few websites that printed a Honda bulletin from the tech line about a different transmission fluid that may help her issue. She attempted to order it online and could not find it. After arguing with 3 dealers about the part number that dealers could not locate MotorWerks discovered their software for updates from Honda was out of date. Once they updated it they found the part number. At 14,000 miles the owner paid to swap out the transmission fluid in hopes it would help the issue. While she claimed it felt better, a few weeks later the gear pops were happening again. To avoid any comments on why the owner did not want to swap to GM or Penzoil Syncromesh, it was mainly because she wanted Honda to address the root of the problem and make a manufacturing fix.
Could Not Replicate the Problem:
Another call was placed to Motorwerks for an appointment, this time she wanted to ride with a mechanic. They agreed and had the shop foreman go with her and he drove the car. In the 10 minute ride he could not replicate the problem. He was very nice about the issue until he made the following comments:
"You have to press the clutch down all the way."
"These cars all have this problem it is normal."
"You cannot skip gears when you drive these cars."
The shop foreman confirmed the obvious for her. But the disturbing fact was they had no fix. After this visit she made appointments to the now out of business Crystal Lake Honda, Crystal Lake, IL, and Schaumburg Honda. Both visits were almost exactly the same which they recommended that she change the transmission fluid and that this was normal for the car.
Proving the Problem Exists in 5 Minutes:
Soon after we got a call from her about it and that she was thinking about selling the car. We recommended she try calling Honda customer support. We started our own research on the matter which involved hands on. Doing some simple searches on Google revealed a few web forums and blogs discussing issues on the trans problems in the TL, Accord, S2000 and the 2006-2007 Civic Si which proved this is not a random problem.
Edmonds
8thGenCivic
v6performance.net
S2ki
AcuraZine
After the web search we started driving random samples of used Civic Si MY2006-2007 and Accord V6 with 6 speed manuals between the MY 2003-2007. The VIN numbers of the cars are listed below.
Civics
2HGFG21526H708350 2006 27k Miles
2HGFG21567H701080 2007 10k Miles
2HGFA55597H706304 2007 7k Miles
2HGFG21526H702998 2006 17k Miles
2HGFG21576H711583 2006 21k Miles
2HGFA55557H714786 2007 5k Miles
2HGFG21536H710303 2006 6k Miles
2HGFA55507H705381 2007 6k Miles
2HGFG21537H710240 2007 13k Miles
2HGFA55527H706998 2007 10k Miles
Accords
1HGCM65556A010942 2006 25k Miles
1HGCM81625A012611 2005 36k Miles
Our Test Car
Conclusion:
The reader may notice we stopped our research on the Accord models. The main reason was that the trend of problems was fairly obvious. 8 of the 10 Civic Si's we drove had problems getting into 3rd gear mostly during the first 10 minutes of driving. One of the Si's transmission was smooth but had a short shifter kit and a 120db exhaust. And the second Si that past the test really did not pass because 2nd and 3rd gear ground so badly that we could not confidently say it suffered from a manufacturing defect.
The three Accord's driven in the test also had similar issues with 2nd gear smoothness and 3rd gear popping out. The final Accord was our female owner who let one of our most competent drivers behind the wheel to shoot the test videos below.
The two videos should be standard viewing for the dealers who can't seem to "replicate the problem." As we were able to re-produce the problem on our test car in less than 5 minutes and in nearly every test drive we were on.
In conclusion we must say that it's obvious there is a problem and Honda needs to address the issue with a mechanical fix. Rumors are now flying that Honda has a fix in the pipe due this month. (01/2008) Likely this will not be a recall but a TSB and in usual dealer fashion they will need to replicate the issue in order to service the car. So while the proof has been out there here is our video documentation of the issue.
Download Video 1
Download Video 2
The past few models I have been in namely the S2000 heavily revolved around the trans and diff being so delicate. But it's not the only model.
Myself and group of other on my team got together to do this article.
Which will be on automotivearticles in the next few days.
But hopefully we will see some fixes for the troubled owners sooner rather than later.
Honda 6 Speed Manual Dilemma
"Can't Replicate the Problem."
Written By: Mark Sanew, Savagegeese.com, Automotivetech.org, Greg Nelson, Abram Zednoski.
Editor: Jaroslaw Szymanski
Mobile Version of Article
- Certain Honda 6 speed manuals problematic for most owners.
- Dealers not trying hard enough to troubleshoot issues with owners.
- Problem demonstrated in video below.
- Problem is real and Honda may have mechanical fix in the works for certain models.
Story:
Not long ago in the adolescence of the compact car market were Hondas running around with intakes, headers, body kits and the required spoiler generating 50,000lbs of rear down force. The automotive market and drivers have changed remarkably in the past 10 years. In that time we have seen the dawn and now near death of the large SUV. We have seen cars of all makes and models grow in size, safety and power. And now as the world debates energy changes and policies we have an evolving car market.
But this article is not going to discuss any of that. We are here to take a look the current lineup of the vehicles manufactured with Honda 6 speed manual transmission. Every car group has a few models that create a buzz that fills internet search engines with data for analysts to observe. Be it the GM ZR-1, Ferrari 430 Scuderia, or the Honda Civic Type R, enthusiasts love new sports cars.
In the 90s some of the North American market had a taste of the Acura NSX and the Integra Type R. While millions had their heart in Civic's and Integras. The message boards filled up with questions on how to make these cars faster and more extreme. Fast forward to year 2000 and Honda has provided the market with the S2000, a more powerful Civic Si with limited slip and 6 Speed manual transmission and near 300HP versions of the TL and Accords.
This past decade has been one exciting time for Honda owners. But before we send Honda a box of chocolates and flowers we must address a nagging issue that owners all over the internet have been posting and blogging about. The issue is that of the 6 speed manual transmission problems in several major Honda models. The complaints range from gear grinds, difficulty shifting, and loss of gears all together.
The Problem:
Our experience started in 2000 with the Honda S2000 praised as having one of the worlds best feeling gearbox. But as the number of owners increased so did the cries of frequent 2nd and 3rd gear grinds and owners losing 5th or 6th gear all together. As time advanced owners of the car had learned from hard core owners and mechanics that skipping gears such as shifting from 3rd to 5th could cause loss of a synchronizer on that gear. Or that the Honda transmission fluid was not up to the task in wear protection for the long term. Owners tampered with different trans fluids, fluid levels and shifting techniques. As the 2002 model rolled in manufacturing improvements were said to be made but no one could really decide what they were. In 2004 the transmission synchronizers received an update in materials in hopes to alleviate balky shifting and grinds. As owners brought in their cars to the dealers the same story like a broken record was heard in many cases, dealers suspecting abuse or refusing service due to modifications.
To take an unbiased approach there were hundreds of stories we had read where some of these owners were very negligent. One day on the message board they were posting on how they accomplished a massive burnout in front a Corvette and the next day they lost a gear or clutch. We understand that many sports car owners of all makes and models like to drive and many don't want to leave their car stock so dealers tend to be very cautious about honoring warranties. But moving away from the S2000 problems we come to the Honda Accord released in 2003 for the first time with a 6 speed manual. Also the nearly brand new 2006 Honda Civic Si also equipped for the first time with a 6 speed manual gearbox.
Trying to Fix the Problem:
There are other models such as the Acura TL and TSX with 6 speed transmissions and much of what will be discussed will apply more so to the TL. One of the females in the group loved the Accord Coupe and decided to buy a new 2006 EX with 6 Speed and navigation. After test driving older models and being upset with clutch take-up it seems the 2006 and 2007 models did not suffer from the issue so the purchase was made. After 1000 miles 3rd gear seemed difficult to engage or sometimes refused to engage at all and popped out when attempts were made. The female owner suspected it may just need to be broken in further. At 3000 miles the issues continued and the first trip was made to MotorWerks in Barrinton, Illinois . This dealer has a good reputation in terms of repair and sales and most likely due to them selling higher end vehicles such as Porsche, BMW, and Maybach. After the usual day in the shop the owner got the call from the service manager saying that "They could not replicate the issue." This is a quote most Honda owners of these types of cars dread and have heard often.
At 10,000 miles the problem continues and the second attempt at dropping it off at the dealer returned the same result, nothing. Frustrated and upset the owner asked friends and a local Honda mechanic and they pointed her to a few websites that printed a Honda bulletin from the tech line about a different transmission fluid that may help her issue. She attempted to order it online and could not find it. After arguing with 3 dealers about the part number that dealers could not locate MotorWerks discovered their software for updates from Honda was out of date. Once they updated it they found the part number. At 14,000 miles the owner paid to swap out the transmission fluid in hopes it would help the issue. While she claimed it felt better, a few weeks later the gear pops were happening again. To avoid any comments on why the owner did not want to swap to GM or Penzoil Syncromesh, it was mainly because she wanted Honda to address the root of the problem and make a manufacturing fix.
Could Not Replicate the Problem:
Another call was placed to Motorwerks for an appointment, this time she wanted to ride with a mechanic. They agreed and had the shop foreman go with her and he drove the car. In the 10 minute ride he could not replicate the problem. He was very nice about the issue until he made the following comments:
"You have to press the clutch down all the way."
"These cars all have this problem it is normal."
"You cannot skip gears when you drive these cars."
The shop foreman confirmed the obvious for her. But the disturbing fact was they had no fix. After this visit she made appointments to the now out of business Crystal Lake Honda, Crystal Lake, IL, and Schaumburg Honda. Both visits were almost exactly the same which they recommended that she change the transmission fluid and that this was normal for the car.
Proving the Problem Exists in 5 Minutes:
Soon after we got a call from her about it and that she was thinking about selling the car. We recommended she try calling Honda customer support. We started our own research on the matter which involved hands on. Doing some simple searches on Google revealed a few web forums and blogs discussing issues on the trans problems in the TL, Accord, S2000 and the 2006-2007 Civic Si which proved this is not a random problem.
Edmonds
8thGenCivic
v6performance.net
S2ki
AcuraZine
After the web search we started driving random samples of used Civic Si MY2006-2007 and Accord V6 with 6 speed manuals between the MY 2003-2007. The VIN numbers of the cars are listed below.
Civics
2HGFG21526H708350 2006 27k Miles
2HGFG21567H701080 2007 10k Miles
2HGFA55597H706304 2007 7k Miles
2HGFG21526H702998 2006 17k Miles
2HGFG21576H711583 2006 21k Miles
2HGFA55557H714786 2007 5k Miles
2HGFG21536H710303 2006 6k Miles
2HGFA55507H705381 2007 6k Miles
2HGFG21537H710240 2007 13k Miles
2HGFA55527H706998 2007 10k Miles
Accords
1HGCM65556A010942 2006 25k Miles
1HGCM81625A012611 2005 36k Miles
Our Test Car
Conclusion:
The reader may notice we stopped our research on the Accord models. The main reason was that the trend of problems was fairly obvious. 8 of the 10 Civic Si's we drove had problems getting into 3rd gear mostly during the first 10 minutes of driving. One of the Si's transmission was smooth but had a short shifter kit and a 120db exhaust. And the second Si that past the test really did not pass because 2nd and 3rd gear ground so badly that we could not confidently say it suffered from a manufacturing defect.
The three Accord's driven in the test also had similar issues with 2nd gear smoothness and 3rd gear popping out. The final Accord was our female owner who let one of our most competent drivers behind the wheel to shoot the test videos below.
The two videos should be standard viewing for the dealers who can't seem to "replicate the problem." As we were able to re-produce the problem on our test car in less than 5 minutes and in nearly every test drive we were on.
In conclusion we must say that it's obvious there is a problem and Honda needs to address the issue with a mechanical fix. Rumors are now flying that Honda has a fix in the pipe due this month. (01/2008) Likely this will not be a recall but a TSB and in usual dealer fashion they will need to replicate the issue in order to service the car. So while the proof has been out there here is our video documentation of the issue.
Download Video 1
Download Video 2
01-07-2008, 07:05 AM
#3
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The Honda S2000 6-speed manual gearbox is, as far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong, the only Honda 6-speed manual gearbox mounted north/south, if you know what I mean.
Maybe older Legends (MY90-93?) have a north/south manual gearbox as the earlier models have the engine north/south, but that's way before the S2000 was made.
Honda did acknowledge rough 1-2 shifting in early S2000's and did have a TSB out to fix it under warranty.
IIRC the same for the popping out of 3rd on later MY's
IMO most of the "problems" with the S2000 6-speed manaul gearbox do not exist.
It either oil, clutch, shifter or operator related.
Oil related things are old oil, I do think the OEM gearbox oil change interval is a bit too long.
Clutch related things are bad clutch install, old clutch fluid resulting in mess-up master and/or slave cylinders, low clutch fluid level as a result of old clutch fluid, dry clutch fork pivot points etc, wrong adjusted clutch master & pedal.
Shifter related things are worn / broken plastic ball-linkage, not enough grease on those parts causing wear / damage.
Operator related things are IMO the operator not being used to the direct feel of the shifting action of the 6-speed manual used in the S2000 and/or improper training in using a manual transmission resulting in bad foot=clutch / hand=shifter timing.
Besides all this... who cares about Civics / Accords?
Maybe older Legends (MY90-93?) have a north/south manual gearbox as the earlier models have the engine north/south, but that's way before the S2000 was made.
Honda did acknowledge rough 1-2 shifting in early S2000's and did have a TSB out to fix it under warranty.
IIRC the same for the popping out of 3rd on later MY's
IMO most of the "problems" with the S2000 6-speed manaul gearbox do not exist.
It either oil, clutch, shifter or operator related.
Oil related things are old oil, I do think the OEM gearbox oil change interval is a bit too long.
Clutch related things are bad clutch install, old clutch fluid resulting in mess-up master and/or slave cylinders, low clutch fluid level as a result of old clutch fluid, dry clutch fork pivot points etc, wrong adjusted clutch master & pedal.
Shifter related things are worn / broken plastic ball-linkage, not enough grease on those parts causing wear / damage.
Operator related things are IMO the operator not being used to the direct feel of the shifting action of the 6-speed manual used in the S2000 and/or improper training in using a manual transmission resulting in bad foot=clutch / hand=shifter timing.
Besides all this... who cares about Civics / Accords?
01-07-2008, 07:58 AM
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I took my S2000 in to the dealership for problems like this and they said they couldn't replicate the problem I was experiencing and wouldn't be able to fix it. I had grinding in 3rd gear and 6th gear would be extremely difficult to get into gear. It was like pushing through a wall. After a few shifts to 6th the pressure became less and less.
01-07-2008, 10:25 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
I had grinds all the time on the OEM Honda trans fluid.
Swapping to GM syncromesh helped but as the fluid got tired grinds would come back.
The S2000 owners more so the 2000-2003 owners learned to swap in different fluids and take care in shifting to avoid problems.
True for you guys, you don't care about the other models because there won't likely be a fix for the S2000. Maybe not even the mas produced Accords, Civics and TLs but going around swapping in random trans fluids and saying the issue is fixed is not a fix. It gets Honda out of really figuring out a mechanical solution or re-formulating their trans fluid again so dealer servicing is not a "Customer to prove" everything ordeal.
While some of you here are very well educated about your cars, not everyone is. People who buy Accords and Civics should not have be all over the internet making 1000s of threads about trans problems, and the fix should not be going to a GM dealer for trans fluid.
Swapping to GM syncromesh helped but as the fluid got tired grinds would come back.
The S2000 owners more so the 2000-2003 owners learned to swap in different fluids and take care in shifting to avoid problems.
True for you guys, you don't care about the other models because there won't likely be a fix for the S2000. Maybe not even the mas produced Accords, Civics and TLs but going around swapping in random trans fluids and saying the issue is fixed is not a fix. It gets Honda out of really figuring out a mechanical solution or re-formulating their trans fluid again so dealer servicing is not a "Customer to prove" everything ordeal.
While some of you here are very well educated about your cars, not everyone is. People who buy Accords and Civics should not have be all over the internet making 1000s of threads about trans problems, and the fix should not be going to a GM dealer for trans fluid.
01-07-2008, 10:27 AM
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Document, document, document. Start the paper trail and go to the district manager.
The popping out issue as described by a couple other posters is almost always due to worn shifter forks (trans oil won't fix this), it has to be rebuilt. It goes out of spec with poorly maintained oil, abuse, or randome tolerance stacking. I have never heard of third doing this.
The popping out issue as described by a couple other posters is almost always due to worn shifter forks (trans oil won't fix this), it has to be rebuilt. It goes out of spec with poorly maintained oil, abuse, or randome tolerance stacking. I have never heard of third doing this.
01-07-2008, 10:51 AM
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Wow, thanks for the detailed writeup, Dezoris! 
I had the EXACT same problem with my old '02 RSX-S.
2nd gear grind, 3rd gear popping out.
You can add me to the list. Don't have the VIN right now though.
Keep up the work, man.
Hope your work contributes to Honda's manual gearbox development.
Dan
I had the EXACT same problem with my old '02 RSX-S.
2nd gear grind, 3rd gear popping out.
You can add me to the list. Don't have the VIN right now though.
Keep up the work, man.
Hope your work contributes to Honda's manual gearbox development.
Dan
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01-07-2008, 12:10 PM
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i ahve an ap2 MY04 and have never had this problem...2nd has from time to time been a little..."sticky" but thats only in extreme cold and i always let the car warm up a bar or 2 before moving the car
01-07-2008, 12:40 PM
#9
I have an early box and it has been open twice under warranty... once to do the TSB gearset replacement to reduce 1-2 grinds, and once because it would slip out of fourth gear. Both fixes helped but it is still sensitive to fluid and will grind second when hot.
I suggest keeping fresh fluid in the transmission, avoiding fast shifts when the box is hot (extended highway or first gear use), and keeping the clutch fluid fresh with a periodic flush.
As good as this transmission shifts under good conditions; it is also a pain when things are not right. Don't hold your breath for any real change from Honda.
I suggest keeping fresh fluid in the transmission, avoiding fast shifts when the box is hot (extended highway or first gear use), and keeping the clutch fluid fresh with a periodic flush.
As good as this transmission shifts under good conditions; it is also a pain when things are not right. Don't hold your breath for any real change from Honda.
why Accord and Civic VIN's should even be listed.
