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Misfire Mystery dtc P1399 - Need Help to Solve Recommendations for Troubleshooting

#1 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 07:26 PM

I have been doing alot of research and troubleshooting on this mysterious misfire issue, which a number of S2k owners seem to have had including me, but I have not come across a strong understanding of the exact cause nor the exact repair.
I have an '02 S2k with 50k miles on it and here is the situation:

May 2007, CEL comes on. Error codes = misfires on all cylinders, multiple misfires, and P-1399 "Manufacturer Control Ignition System Error". We checked sparkplug gaps which were within spec and replaced the fuel injectors with brand new OEM ones. We reset the system and the CEL went away and everything was fine for one year until.................

Fast forward to May 2008. CEL returns :cry:
Same error codes as before, Multiple misfires, with a new twist, when the car is idling for more then 3 minutes, the CEL light blinks repeatedly until you begin moving. The idle and acceleration seem to be a bit off as well on occasion. So we replaced the spark plugs with brand new OEM ones and reset the system.

Everything is fine for a week and then the CEL returns with the same error codes. :ponder:

Can a brilliant S2ki member please help enlighten us on how to fix this. I was thinking valve adjustment might be the next step, but am hoping for a better and more accurate fix. :confused: Thank You.

#2 User is offline   Slows2k 

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 07:25 PM

Wait until the car throws a permanent DTC of the specific cylinder that is misfiring, and don't clear the DTC's so whatever shop looks at the car can get the stored freeze data.
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#3 User is offline   Togobox 

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Posted 20 July 2008 - 08:34 PM

Would you be able to post the MAP and TPS voltage at idle with the engine fully warm up?

#4 User is offline   Skatethesea 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 05:44 PM

did you try the coilpacks? The igniters in the coils are known to go bad in Hondas in general.
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#5 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:33 AM

Thanks for the comments, here is the latest update on the mystery.

We ran a compression test on the engine.
Cylinder 1 = 150psi
Cylinder 2 = 255psi
Cylinder 3 = 245psi
Cylinder 4 = 250psi

So clearly there is an issue with Cylinder 1. So we pull the cylinder head and do some inspection. No indication of any unusual wear or markings. We also used a boriscope to look at the cylinder wall and top of pistons, all of which looked normal.

The gaps on the Intake Valve's for all cylinders was within spec at .09in.

Then we checked the Exhaust valve's, all of which were a bit loose ranging from .05 - .08. We adjusted them to spec at .010in.

We then did another compression test and no change in compression. Cylinder 1 still off.

We reset the CEL and fifteen minutes later it was back on with the same misfire codes, P300, P301, P302, P303, P304, P1399.

I am totally at a loss on how to fix this or what to do next. The car sounds fine and seems to run fine outside of occasional idle vibration.

Motorheads Help................ :banghead:

#6 User is offline   Slows2k 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 01:57 PM

it's got either shot rings or a burned valve. Needs a leakdown test.

#7 User is offline   R3DS2K 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 02:12 PM

blinking CEL means if you keeping running the car.. it can damage the CAT.
low compression can cause misfire codes..

#8 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 02:31 PM

Thanks Slows2k and R3DS2K

Will find a garage that can do a leakdown test.

Why would low compression in one cylinder throw misfire codes for all cylinders?

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 02:46 PM

the first cyl. ( 150 ) is a bit low , but even with a bad cyl it would not throw multiple miss codes, there is a possible electrical problem and they way its acting it could be a control sensor.... some sensor the ECM uses to determine ignition timing like TPS or a position sensor. Somtimes theses sensors will stop working and not throw a code.

Do a leak down test on #1 and if the cyl is toast rebuild and see how it acts after.....Good luck :tipwink:
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#10 User is offline   R3DS2K 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 05:01 PM

low compression can cause misfires
another you can do is check for fuel pressure.. but the compression test already shows #1 cylinder has an issue

below from alldata
DTC P0300: Random Misfire

P1399 is a random misfire code and Honda/Acura has reported for various models that this could be caused by clogged EGR ports. In addition there is the possibility that the valve cleareance specification may be out of range.

* If the misfiring is frequent enough to trigger detection of increased emissions during two consecutive driving cycles, the MIL will come on, and DTC P0300 (and some combination of P0301 through P0304) will be stored.
* If the misfiring is frequent enough to damage the catalyst, the MIL will blink whenever the misfiring occurs, and DTC P0300 (and some combination of P0301 through P0304) will be stored. When the misfiring stops, the MIL will remain on.

This post has been edited by R3DS2K: 27 July 2008 - 05:02 PM


#11 User is offline   Slows2k 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 06:53 PM

EGR clogging is not an issue with any S2000 because the car has never had an EGR system

#12 User is offline   R3DS2K 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:02 PM

Quote

EGR clogging is not an issue with any S2000 because the car has never had an EGR system

yea i was just posting what alldata said about the code P1399
also i cant get much info about P1399
again from alldata so im guessing this is a honda only code
Honda does not supply a diagnostic flow chart for this code

This post has been edited by R3DS2K: 27 July 2008 - 07:02 PM


#13 User is offline   Togobox 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:18 PM

P1399 is SAE , NOT Honda ,

#14 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:20 PM

Thanks Guys

It may be worth doing a fuel pressure test as I am still nibbling on the fact that the misfires and Cylinder 1 low PSI could be unrelated as it befuddles me why putting in new injectors last year, "fixed the CEL" for a year. Plus doing a fuel test will provide more data and it never hurts to have lots of data.

Just to give you guys a laugh, last week I decided to try the Dealer route for troubleshooting. They did a compression test and came back saying they needed to replace the entire cylinder head for $5k. I laughed and asked them if they even took a look at the inside of the cylinder before making such a HUGE assumption based on a compression test. They looked confused so I looked confused when they asked me to pay for the compression test.

#15 User is offline   Togobox 

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 10:58 PM

not worth to do anything til you figured out why #1 is low compression.
The compression variation is out of spec. Do you noticed any oil comes out of the PCV ?



#16 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 08:26 AM

I definitely need to fix on the Cylinder Issue first and foremost. Thanks to all for helping to keep me focused.

I have not noticed any oil leakage in the PCV, but have only started checking on it recently. Oil level has also remained level.

#17 User is offline   Togobox 

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 02:56 PM

i wonder once you pull the cylinder head you would know what is going on. Worn pistion rings will cause alot of blow by that often have enough pressure to push oil out of the valve cover, seals etc. might want to remove the pcv , run the engine to see if it's got oil comes out of that hole.

the only way i know the cylinder head is good is to remove it and pressure test it.

#18 User is offline   Random1 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 08:17 AM

Quote

snip...
it befuddles me why putting in new injectors last year, "fixed the CEL" for a year. ...snip

If the root cause of the injector problem is junk in the gas tank then it could be that the junk made your injectors sticky after a year and caused misfires. If you had also cleaned or put in a new gas tank it may have lasted another 50k miles, but who knows since the root cause of sticky injectors, rough idle, and random misfire codes is not know to my knowledge.
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#19 User is offline   kial007 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 10:23 PM

The Honda service manual says to check fuel pressure if you have a random misfire code accompanied by individual cylinder misfire codes (regardless of how many or which cylinders).
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#20 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 08:44 AM

Thank you to all for feedback and advice.

I had a chance to chat with Hardtopguy (Jeff) during the week. Like many of us he has seen this scenario before and indicated it is actually two separate issues (compression and misfires).

My next steps for fix are:
- Replace injectors with working used ones
- Flush Fuel System
- Replace both intake and exhaust valve's on Cylinder 1
- While doing all this work keep a careful eye out for any damage in the cylinder head

I am waiting on parts and hope to have the work started in the next week.

#21 User is offline   Random1 

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 08:57 AM

Quote

Thank you to all for feedback and advice.

I had a chance to chat with Hardtopguy (Jeff) during the week. Like many of us he has seen this scenario before and indicated it is actually two separate issues (compression and misfires).

My next steps for fix are:
- Replace injectors with working used ones
- Flush Fuel System
- Replace both intake and exhaust valve's on Cylinder 1
- While doing all this work keep a careful eye out for any damage in the cylinder head

I am waiting on parts and hope to have the work started in the next week.

I would not buy used injectors. You may end up back to the misfire state faster than if you buy new ones.

Did you buy used ones last time? How many miles did you get on your last set before misfires started happening again?

#22 User is offline   R3DS2K 

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 10:44 AM

Quote

Thank you to all for feedback and advice.

I had a chance to chat with Hardtopguy (Jeff) during the week. Like many of us he has seen this scenario before and indicated it is actually two separate issues (compression and misfires).

My next steps for fix are:
- Replace injectors with working used ones
- Flush Fuel System
- Replace both intake and exhaust valve's on Cylinder 1
- While doing all this work keep a careful eye out for any damage in the cylinder head

I am waiting on parts and hope to have the work started in the next week.

i seen this before.. if you have low compression u can cause misfires .. i wouldnt buy anything till you get that compression fixed.. i know you dont wanna spend alot of money getting into the motor.. but buy stuff on the outside of the motor wont fix whats wrong on the inside

#23 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 03:08 PM

Quote

Did you buy used ones last time? How many miles did you get on your last set before misfires started happening again?


Bought brand new OEM Injectors previously. Got 10K and 1 Year out of them before misfires started again. The originals had 41k and 6 years of use on them before misfire problem started. Only 93 octane BP/Exxon fuel used outside of the occasional Citgo and Mobil.

#24 User is offline   jman 

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 08:34 PM

Latest Update - Leakdown Test

So I had a Leakdown Test done on Cylinder 1 and there was air escaping from the Intake Valve's and possibly a small air leak on the Exhaust valve's. Also squirted some oil into the cylinders as part of test and the piston rings are okay.

So it is looking like new valve's for Cylinder 1 and a careful inspection throughout the replacement process for any other visual issues. For the moment I am going to stay away from any work on the injectors and by hopefully :thumbup: fixing the compression issue in Cylinder one it will in turn solve the misfires.

The work will start next week.

#25 User is offline   R3DS2K 

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:54 PM

Quote

Latest Update - Leakdown Test

So I had a Leakdown Test done on Cylinder 1 and there was air escaping from the Intake Valve's and possibly a small air leak on the Exhaust valve's. Also squirted some oil into the cylinders as part of test and the piston rings are okay.

So it is looking like new valve's for Cylinder 1 and a careful inspection throughout the replacement process for any other visual issues. For the moment I am going to stay away from any work on the injectors and by hopefully :thumbup: fixing the compression issue in Cylinder one it will in turn solve the misfires.

The work will start next week.

good luck.. keep us updated.. pix be nice too :thumbup:

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