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FMIC vs After Cooler Which is more efficent/effective???

#1 User is offline   KatchMe808 

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:48 AM

Hey guys its time to SC my S. I'm stuck between the SOS stage2 w/larger heat exchanger and the Kraftwerks High boost kit. I was just wondering which is more efficent/effective means of cooling the IAT... FMIC or AfterCooler?

My S is not my daily driver but when I do drive her, I like to open her up and have fun.

If this topic has already been discussed sorry in advance for repeating it and could someone point me in the direction of that thread. Thanks.
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#2 User is offline   teamvalorracing 

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:28 AM

depends on the amount of boost you run for which cooler you should use.

since you are looking at the stg2 or the KW high boost, i would say the fm is best and has the most room for upping the boost in the future. your throttle response will not be as good as with the AC simply because of all the additional piping and larger cooler, but they all serve a purpose. and the throttle response difference is minuscule.

i think you will be happier with the sos kit though in terms of fit/finish and aesthetics.
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#3 User is offline   Moddiction 

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 05:08 PM

I would go with the aftercooler!
fmic will lose more boost due to the long piping and worse throttle response.
The aftercooler, the air goes right from sc into engine.
Harder to heat up water compared to heat soaking the fmic. On the other hand it is harder to cool the water once it gets hot compared to the fmic.
In aftercooler with a larger front mount heat exchanger I think is the best solution for a supercharger!
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#4 User is offline   Sportster 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 04:42 AM

heat soaking the fmic?! have you had experience with aftercooler?! I had both, each one has its own + and -. Heat soaking is the most common problem for the Aftercooler. The FMIC does not suffer from heat soaking, only from boost loss, everything else is far better.

As far as my prefered SC system I would go for rotrex and FMIC, ie Kraftwerks or TTS.

By the way, I am too SC with a CT kit (Paxton unit Novi 1000) and converted form the standard AC to a FMIC for better cooling. I wouldnt switch back to AC. I may try different approach such as a smaller intercooler to minimise boost loss but FMIC is definitely the way to go...

#5 User is offline   Moddiction 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 09:00 AM

Yes FMICs heat soak. On a hot day a fmic will heatsoak before an aftercooler will. Air heats up faster than water. Nothing you can do about that.
So a fmic for a sc will give you worse throttle response, boost loss and will heatsoak quicker.
Like I said before though once the water does get heated up it takes longer to cool down compared to a fmic.
A fmic might be beneficial if running higher boost like 14+psi. But a sc especially a ct can't run enough boost to make up for the boost loss running a fmic so an aftercooler will always make more power than a fmic with a ct sc.

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#6 User is offline   itlynstalyn 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 10:47 AM

^^^
You're misinformed on this subject. Many people use the FMIC to eliminate heatsoak because the placement is better to cool the air. The aftercooler is in the engine bay and the water heats EXTREMELY quickly. The only drawback of the FMIC is boost loss because the routing of the piping is much longer. Cooler charge air = more power. If you're worried about boost loss just get a bigger pulley to make up for it.

#7 User is offline   Moddiction 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 10:51 AM

Quote

^^^
You're misinformed on this subject. Many people use the FMIC to eliminate heatsoak because the placement is better to cool the air. The aftercooler is in the engine bay and the water heats EXTREMELY quickly. The only drawback of the FMIC is boost loss because the routing of the piping is much longer. Cooler charge air = more power. If you're worried about boost loss just get a bigger pulley to make up for it.

Actually water heats up slower. So your incorrect with that.
A front mount heat exchanger keeps the water/coolant cool and harder to heat up. Like I said the fmic advantage is once the aftercooler finally does heatsoak(takes some serious tracking) the water is harder to cool down than an air to air intercooler.
And with a ct you can only get like a 12 lb pulley so will definitely make more power using a 12 pulley and an aftercooler compared to a 12 lb pulley and a fmic.
There is a reason why so few people run a fmic with a supercharger. Loss of boost and worse throttle response are reason enough. Not needed for a supercharger unless running some high boost.

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#8 User is offline   itlynstalyn 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 10:57 AM

Quote

Actually water heats up slower. So your incorrect with that.
A front mount heat exchanger keeps the water/coolant cool and harder to heat up. Like I said the fmic advantage is once the aftercooler finally does heatsoak(takes some serious tracking) the water is harder to cool down than an air to air intercooler.
And with a ct you can only get like a 12 lb pulley so will definitely make more power using a 12 pulley and an aftercooler compared to a 12 lb pulley and a fmic.
There is a reason why so few people run a fmic with a supercharger. Loss of boost and worse throttle response are reason enough. Not needed for a supercharger unless running some high boost.

Nowhere did I say that water heats faster than air. The fact of the matter is people convert to FMIC because you get cooler charge air from the intercooler that's mounted in the front bumper than air coming from an aftercooler that's stuck in an extremely hot engine bay.

Trust me, I've used both. I saw more horsepower on the dyno at the same boost with the FMIC over the aftercooler for longer periods of time without any serious cooling.

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:01 AM

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Nowhere did I say that water heats faster than air. The fact of the matter is people convert to FMIC because you get cooler charge air from the intercooler that's mounted in the front bumper than air coming from an aftercooler that's stuck in an extremely hot engine bay.

Trust me, I've used both. I saw more horsepower on the dyno at the same boost with the FMIC over the aftercooler for longer periods of time without any serious cooling.

Yeah but what I was saying about the comptech is you will run out of boost with a fmic and make less possible power than with an aftercooler do to the boost loss. So if you are happy running a max of around 9 lbs with a fmic you can do that but with an aftercooler and 12 lbs will make considerably more power.
Sure the aftercooler is in the engine bay but the water is cooled up front just like a fmic and recirculated with the water pump.
I know after many hard pulls my aftercooler is very cool still! Did runs in 95+ degrees weather and still was very cool.
fmic might cool air slightly more but no way is it worth the boost loss and throttle response suffered imo. Many people revert right back to an aftercooler after getting a fmic for that very reason!


#10 User is offline   itlynstalyn 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:07 AM

^^^

There are plenty of pulleys available that can make up for the boost loss. Throttle response is hardly noticeable at all. Why do you think every turbo car runs a FMIC? Because it's better/more efficient. People revert because of the boost loss, no other reason.

Again, I've used both and the intercooler keeps the charge air cooler for much longer than the aftercooler.

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:09 AM

Quote

^^^

There are plenty of pulleys available that can make up for the boost loss. Throttle response is hardly noticeable at all. Why do you think every turbo car runs a FMIC? Because it's better/more efficient. People revert because of the boost loss, no other reason.

Again, I've used both and the intercooler keeps the charge air cooler for much longer than the aftercooler.

Well the air is much hotter coming out of a turbo so would heat the liquid up quicker. For a supercharger that is not as much of an issue. And no for a ct you can't just do that. You will overspin the blower before you can make up for the boost loss. You will also put more wear on the supercharger for spinning more for a lower boost amount.

#12 User is offline   itlynstalyn 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:24 AM

A supercharger is still pushing hot air. You're not going to overspin the blower, a vortech/comptech isn't a rotrex. There are people on this board alone pushing 15-20 lbs of boost on their superchargers. If you haven't had first-hand experience with both you shouldn't make such gross generalizations. The FMIC is proven to lower IAT over the aftercooler for longer periods of time. The single-greatest drawback being the boost loss.

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:33 AM

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A supercharger is still pushing hot air. You're not going to overspin the blower, a vortech/comptech isn't a rotrex. There are people on this board alone pushing 15-20 lbs of boost on their superchargers. If you haven't had first-hand experience with both you shouldn't make such gross generalizations. The FMIC is proven to lower IAT over the aftercooler for longer periods of time. The single-greatest drawback being the boost loss.

Vortech can run higher boost comptech won't reach those numbers. Yes you can overspin the blower.

#14 User is offline   itlynstalyn 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:45 AM

I didn't say you could or couldn't I said you're not going too. A 3.0" pulley with a fmic will put out anywhere from 9-11lbs of boost without "overspinning" the blower and still make excellent power.

The OP never said anything about a comptech kit, he's debating between SOS and Kraftwerks and wanted to know which cooled the air better/more efficiently. Here's a hint: it's the FMIC.

#15 User is offline   Enlightened 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:14 PM

Cooling aside, SOS is expandable (up to 20+ lbl's with the Novi 1200) where as KW your limited to 9.5-10.5 lbs of boost. So decide what power you want and stick with the cooling method that comes with the kit.

#16 User is offline   s2000Junky 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:23 PM

Quote

^^^
You're misinformed on this subject. Many people use the FMIC to eliminate heatsoak because the placement is better to cool the air. The aftercooler is in the engine bay and the water heats EXTREMELY quickly. The only drawback of the FMIC is boost loss because the routing of the piping is much longer. Cooler charge air = more power. If you're worried about boost loss just get a bigger pulley to make up for it.

Your misinformed. The AC in the engine bay only holds the water. The heat exchanger for the AC is also in the grill like the fmic. With the upgraded SOS heat exchanger visually you cant tell the difference between this and the FMIC.

For all out power and efficiency the SOS kit with upgraded heat exchanger hands down is better. KW is a great kit too, but for your OP questions/goals this is where its at. FMIC are great for turbos, not necessary for the drawbacks with an SC. For a KW kit which is at its limit right out of the box, it also makes sense. The rotrex blower spins twice as fast as a typical Novi blower with different boost characteristics to help offset some of the drawbacks.
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#17 User is offline   s2000Junky 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:32 PM

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Nowhere did I say that water heats faster than air. The fact of the matter is people convert to FMIC because you get cooler charge air from the intercooler that's mounted in the front bumper than air coming from an aftercooler that's stuck in an extremely hot engine bay.

Trust me, I've used both. I saw more horsepower on the dyno at the same boost with the FMIC over the aftercooler for longer periods of time without any serious cooling.

But there is a point depending on boost where there is diminishing returns. Overall the boost loss does not offset the added cooling of the fmic. You are hard presses to make anything over 10psi on a SC with an fmic. 2-4psi loss isn't very efficient. Now in the scenario where someone is running a kit with 8psi AC and then another guy is running 8psi fmic I can see the benefit. But your also putting more strain on the SC to spin faster to compensate for the boost loss. So that guy is running a 3.6 pulley vs the AC guy who only has to run a 4" etc...etc... The only time I would consider an fmic on a SC is if I were racing competitively and in a particular HP bracket.

#18 User is offline   s2000Junky 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:36 PM

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I didn't say you could or couldn't I said you're not going too. A 3.0" pulley with a fmic will put out anywhere from 9-11lbs of boost without "overspinning" the blower and still make excellent power.

The OP never said anything about a comptech kit, he's debating between SOS and Kraftwerks and wanted to know which cooled the air better/more efficiently. Here's a hint: it's the FMIC.

But that 3" pulley on an A/C kit will net 13-14psi and exceed the power level beyond the added cooling efficiency of the FMIC. :boxing:

:LOL:

BTW the SOS and CT kits both use novi blowers so its a fair comparison. a Rotrex and Novi is not. The point is the FMIC cools the air better, but not more efficiently for an SC is the point.

#19 User is offline   NaturalAspirations 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 02:35 PM

It seems like the only way to be sure is to log pressure and iat's. Numbers don't lie.

#20 User is offline   S2SEXY 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 02:42 PM

well with the 3.2 pulley on my ap1 (novi 1000) i made 9.5psi with a fmic.who is running a 3.2 with a aftercooler and how much boost did it show on the dyno,not your boost gauge.

#21 User is offline   KatchMe808 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 02:43 PM

Thanks guys for your input, I appreciate it!

So what I gathered from this is that: Since I am planning on keeping boost around 10psi, the pressure drop that is associated with an fmic would not be as effective/efficient as an AC w/ larger front mount heat exchanger. For example the SOS upgraded heat exchanger...

If I was to run 15+psi then it would probably benefit me to upgrade to a fmic...

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Again thanks guys...

#22 User is offline   itlynstalyn 

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 04:41 PM

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Your misinformed. The AC in the engine bay only holds the water. The heat exchanger for the AC is also in the grill like the fmic. With the upgraded SOS heat exchanger visually you cant tell the difference between this and the FMIC.

For all out power and efficiency the SOS kit with upgraded heat exchanger hands down is better. KW is a great kit too, but for your OP questions/goals this is where its at. FMIC are great for turbos, not necessary for the drawbacks with an SC. For a KW kit which is at its limit right out of the box, it also makes sense. The rotrex blower spins twice as fast as a typical Novi blower with different boost characteristics to help offset some of the drawbacks.

The water is still bound to heat up because of where it is in the engine bay. There's not real a way to avoid that other than using ice water to slow it down.

I'm going off personal experience here. My intercoolered s/c kit made consistently more HP than my aftercooler kit at the same boost levels. When I get some time I'll dig up my dyno sheets.

#23 User is offline   teamvalorracing 

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 07:08 AM

^im understanding both sides here. but you said, "My intercoolered s/c kit made consistently more HP than my aftercooler kit at the same boost levels."

so you ran say a 9 psi pulley with the AC, then switched it up to the FMIC and also got a larger pulley to make 9psi with the FMIC?

#24 User is offline   s2kadrenalin 

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 07:43 AM

I just run the A/C + larger heat exchanger on my N1500 @ 14ish psi.

I see no benefit to going FMIC and experiencing boost loss when the larger heat exchanger does its job well enough.
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#25 User is offline   itlynstalyn 

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:54 AM

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^im understanding both sides here. but you said, "My intercoolered s/c kit made consistently more HP than my aftercooler kit at the same boost levels."

so you ran say a 9 psi pulley with the AC, then switched it up to the FMIC and also got a larger pulley to make 9psi with the FMIC?

Exactly, I bought a 3.2" pulley to compensate. I was pushing just about 10lbs of boost on my comptech kit with a FMIC. I'm don't remember exact numbers because it was almost 2 years ago but I'm pretty sure it was making in the range of 15-20 more hp than the standard a/c kit at the same boost level. I switched over because the heat soak was consistently robbing hp from me on the dyno. Each pull would consistently lose hp, where I didn't experience that problem with the FMIC.

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