dsddcd

After helping Joey (ILoveMyHonda1984) try and squeeze out some more power out of his Supercharged E85 AP2 we found a little problem. The fuel pressure started falling like a rock on the topend at around 560WHP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_4ShHI-FKA


So, I did some homework on his fuel system which is on a 2007 using a return system with 255LPH walbro, BAP, IP Fuel Rail, Fuellab Regulator, ID2000 Injectors, factory feed line and -6AN return.

Based on the details below with an additional Bosch 044 he should be able to solve the fuel pressure dip. I believe what is happening is that there is about 10-15PSI of pressure drop in the feed line and as the boost increases the fuel pressure breaks 60PSI at the rail and the pump starts to vent at the 75PSI mark which drops the fuel pressure off. I believe if it was not for the vent it would have enough fuel at your power level with the Walbro and the boost a pump.

That being said with the addition on the Bosch 044 it should have more fuel than fuel to hit about 600WHP with E85. However in the future if he goes up any further it will not suffice. I have attached the flow rate below of the (3) options I have come up with to solve the issue. The Bosch is the cheapest, then the Aeromotive and then the Full Blown however as the pricing increase so does the flow.

Before installing a new system the first option to solve the problem is to reduce the pressure drop in the supply line by going to either -6AN which is one step larger than stock but had much fewer restrictions. Or to move up to a -8AN which illustrated in the charts below will reduce the pressure drop at higher flow rates, the cost is about the same either way but the -6AN is easier to run . With the line run this may lower the restriction enough that the pump does not hit the relief and you have liner flow. In addition with his big ID2000’s he can also lower the base fuel pressure a few PSI which should give you even more head room. It is possible that we can block off the pump vent however I am concerned that the vent was to protect the pump not the fuel system from high pressures and I don’t want to make that recommendation yet.

If this does not work then I would probably recommend the A1000 pump as the cost is not that much more than the Bosch but allows for even more head room. On the other hand the Full Blown will provide more fuel than most will ever be able to use. That being said the most elegant mounting solution if you don’t use the FullBlown’s dual hanger is Intengineering’s surge tank mounted Bosch 044, with this pump coupled to the boost a pump the flow would be as good as or better than the A1000 w/o.

Decisions....Decisions

Component Summary

Estimated Flow Requirements for 600WHP on E85
325 l/hr
85.8 gal/hr
520 lb/hr

Conversion Factors
1 l/hr = 0.264 gal/hr
1 gal of fuel = 6.07 lb

Pressure Drop Calculations
Current Flow Rate = 0.88 gal/min
Fuel Line Length = 10’
E85 Specific Gravity = 0.78
Fuel Rail Elevation = 2’
-5AN = 0.26” ID
-6AN = 0.34” ID
-8AN = 0.44” ID
http://www.lmengines.com/fuel_lines_calcgm

Hose Only Pressure Drop
Line Size......DP @ 200LPH........DP @ 325LPH
-5AN................6.2 PSI................15.17 PSI
-6AN................2.1 PSI................4.47 PSI
-8AN................1.1 PSI................1.7 PSI

Estimated Pressure Drop w/ Fittings (-5AN w/ Factory Fuel Rail)
Line Size........DP @ 200LPH......DP @ 325LPH
-5AN.................10.5 PSI.............21.5 PSI
-6AN..................5.1 PSI..............10.5 PSI
-8AN..................2.1 PSI...............6.5 PSI


Recommended Pumps......................Rating @ 40PSI.........Budget $
FullBlown Dual Hanger w/ 1 Pump...........510 l/hr.................$485
Fuel Lab 410401......................................455 l/hr.................$385
Aeromotive A 1000..................................440 l/hr.................$325
Bosch 044............................................... 290 l/hr..................$200
Trick Bosch 044 Mounted in an Integral Surge Tank
http://www.intengineering.com/Integrated-E.../-p8917398.html

Sideways

A small surge tank with an 044 inline should take care of all your needs.

dsddcd

For the money the Fullblown dual hanger would be a better bang for the buck though.

By the time you made a surge tank and all the fittings you would be close to the same cost.

Just a note I have been told that using the FullBlown setup runing less than a 1/4 tank can cause problems. Can anyone veryify this?

DFWs2k

i thought the dual walbros still ran into a pressure issue? or is that not a problem with the ID2000s and the regulator?

Shftat9k

I would have to agree with you Scott, even though that surge tank you posted looks like a great product. Once you put it all together you will be nearing the FB price. The kit minus one pump can be had for $1150. Almost 100% sure I will be doing this over the winter. Now just need to decide if I should stick with the ID1000s or go for the ID2000s. I like the idle and partial throttle of the 1000s though. I can not imagine the ID2000s being great. I will be satisfied with 600whp on a dynojet, plus not really sure how much more the clutch will take. It is rated at 400ft lbs.

Did you consider adding an inline walbro? Since it would be another 255lph pump you could eliminate the surge tank. I think another member on here has done this. He put the pump in the engine bay, on the frame I believe. I guess he cut the rubber feed line and had a hose shop add fittings to the rubber line allowing him to run all stock lines including the rail and still have two pumps. Can not remember if he had it on all the time or if it was on a solenoid/pressure switch. I will dig through my pm's and try to get more information on the set up. I am sure you can run it all the time to make it more simple. When I spoke to LJ at FB a while ago he said they have had zero problems running both pumps all the time. Although that is also on larger lines.

Martin

Irishflame27

I love my surge setup with the Bosch 044, havent had the chance to push this setup, but should be easily do 750whp on race gas, not sure what it would do on E85, with ID2000's the numbers will be higher im sure....





consists of:

-8 SS feed
-6 SS return
Bosch 044 with -8 fittings and CNC bracket, wired with seperate relay for 12v
Fuelab 5350-1 "EFI" Regulator (2) -6 In (1) -6 Out
fuel pressure gauge
fuel filter and CNC bracket and -8 fittings
6.5x6.5x6.5 (volume =274.625ci or 1.18gal) fuel surge tank

dsddcd

With the fuel rail, regulator... that is pretty close to the estimate I put together also.

You would be surprised how well they do idle. I am pretty picky and I would call it acceptable. I have been in (2) cars with them and both do well. Just a note the AEM will allow more control over idle and do a better job than KPro though.

Mine held to 370Ftlb before it went and that was WAY over the rating which was closer to 235Ftlb's. The trick will be to bring in the boost a bit slower when it first hits. Mine stated slipping just after full spool.

I did not, I focused on the Bosch 044 as it has a higher pressure before relieving. I would be insterested if they offere an inline unit.

You don't need a surge tank with the inline pumps. They are nice but they are not needed. Like I was telling Daryl, and is illustrated above the Walbro with little to no pressure drop can move more GPM than the Bosch or the Aeromotive can b/c they will be creating the pressure.

I have run 044's inline in several cars (Fbody's, Mustangs......) with a factory pump for litterly years with them running full time with no issues.

I would prefere to have the secondary pump closer to the primary so that the pumping pressure on the primary is reduced as low as possible.

Yep he is right I always ran mine of factory lines until we started to make big
power.

Thanks for the details

dsddcd

I remember when you posted your setup and it look SWEET.

Shftat9k

They do offer an inline 255lph walbro. Could you add a 044 close to the tank while using stock lines?

Spoolin

I've got the FB twin Walbro setup and with base pressure set at 43 psi (thats with the vacuum line off the FPR), one pump I forgot to push the pump relief valve in on and making 741 whp on e85 and on a dynojet, I have a ton of fuel room left. I would have to say that the FB twin pump setup is good for around 850-900 whp on e85.

BTW, it is always a good idea to never run very long on less than 1/3 of a tank of gas with the Walbro's on any setup. They need that fuel to set down in to keep them cool.