RS-3 vs Z1SS vs 595 RS-R vs RE-11 vs Z2 vs Rivals
01-07-2011, 05:20 PM
#1
Thread Starter
RS-3 vs Z1SS vs 595 RS-R vs RE-11 vs Z2 vs Rivals
*Special thanks to Darin of West End Alignment (for being a perfectionist when it comes to alignments)
Brief Summary of each tire
RS-3
- Softer sidewall; these definitely absorb bumps well, but are much softer than the rest of the tires in the category. Tires require more camber than most tires
- Immense amount of grip on the initial heat cycles. The first 5 seem to be excellent, with the next 5 being pretty good. After that, they quickly drop off, but remain very predictable.
- "Quiet" tire for street driving, they make white noise
- Somewhat peaky, typically have a 2 lap window to put your fastest lap time
- Requires some heat for maximum grip
- Tire makes noise when you get to like 98% of the limit, and quickly ramp up.
Z1SS
- Stiffer sidewall. Nearly as stiff as the RE070.
- Tires make a very noticeable whine while street driving.
- Tires drop off slowly, but not as quickly as RS3.
595 RS-R Added 3/28/2011!
- Softer sidewall. Slightly stiffer than RS-3, but definitely much softer than Z1SS.
- Tire noise (NVH) is present, but is a much "whiter" noise that blends well, rather than the whine of the Z1SS.
- Extremely peaky, greases out quickly
- Peak grip will be when the tires are still cold. Take a very easy warmup lap with this tire.
RE-11 Added 5/13/2011!
- Stiffer sidewall, but very refined ride. For small bumps, bruises, and bot dots, you *feel* them, but it is muted. You're aware that the road isn't perfect, but it is not harsh at all. For bigger bumps, it is just as harsh as the Z1SS.
- Tires are very quiet; the noise they make blends in very well for street driving
- Tires make a LOT of noise under hard driving. This tire is excellent for beginners, because they give excellent steering AND auditory feedback. The sound will change in pitch and volume as you get closer and closer to the limit
- Tires take heat well! They don't really grease out until theyre REALLY overheated
Z2
- Tires have more ultimate grip than the Z1SS
- Softer sidewall than the Z1SS; turn-in is not as crisp
- Tire is peakier and very tire pressure sensitive. The window for maximum grip is small
- Tire feel changes as tire pressures change throughout a session
Rival
- Tons of treat squirm.
- Builds heat very quickly, needs less cold pressure to get to hot pressure
- Consistent throughout session (less peaky)
- Excellent accel/braking grip, but lateral grip is not as good as RS3
- Once they get hot, they just won't cool down, even with cooldown laps.
- Tire makes noise when you get to about 90% of the limit, but the volume/tone doesn't really ramp up
- Extremely forgiving on slip angles (but also difficult to find ideal because it's so forgiving)
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > Rival = Z2 > RE11 = Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3 >> 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR
End of life grip: RE11 > Z1SS = Z2 > RS3 = 595RSR
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS > Z2 > Rival = 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Rival = Z1SS = Z2 >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 > RE11 = Z2 = Rival > Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 = Rival > Z2 > RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction RE11 > Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
Z1SS Initial impressions.
So far, I have about 3 miles on the tires, driving from the tire shop back to the office.
Inititial impressions are that the Starspecs ride harsher from the stiffer sidewalls and make a lot of whine. I'm not sure if the whine is from the tires being fresh, but New RS-3s, RE070, and NT-05 did not have this whine. It is something similar to what you would hear from a lifted truck with off-road tires on the freeway, but a lot less noisy. With the windows up, it was pretty much non-existent.
My suspicions are that the Z1SS will have better response on turn-in and transitions from the stiffer sidewalls, while the RS-3 have more grip during static turns. My tire wear may also be different in that I may get less wear on the outer shoulders. I'll also try to compare the drop-off in grip level compared to the RS-3.
I will be at the track on both Saturday and Sunday, and will update this post when I have time.
Some notes: All tires in question are 255/40/17, mounted on 8.5" rims.
*edit*
Commute home confirmed, the Z1SS don't roar like off-road tires, but rather have a "hum" to them. Its most noticeable at street speeds (35-45). At higher speeds (freeway), they blend in with other noise.
*edit 1/8/2011* (track day #1)
Fresh Z1SS vs Fresh RS-3, the RS-3 definitely has more grip. However, the Z1SS responds to inputs faster. I guess a good way to put it is that the steering is sharper. On the freeway it was noticeably twitchier.
Also, I was playing with tire pressures, and couldn't quite find a happy medium. The laps that *felt* the best were not my fastest laps. Rather, the laps where I felt it was a little disconnected were my fastest. I'll see if I can figure out pressures tomorrow, and also take a look at the data to see if it reflects anything.
Last, but not least, the clearest indication that the sidewalls are stiffer is the wear on the outer shoulders. The RS-3 would show some significant wear on the outer edges. My alignment is identical to before, and the tire wear isn't quite at the arrow.
*edit 1/9/2011* (track day #2 + drive home)
The Z1SS definitely give crisper response. The turn-ins are sharper, and I could transition weight left/right in esses a tad bit faster. I also noticed I could get bigger slides, and still recover. Unintentional drifts are fun when you're giving ride-alongs
However, again, fresh RS-3 vs fresh Z1SS, I'm 100% certain that the RS-3 is faster. After I get 2-3 more track days on these, I'll compare them to RS-3s with equivalent heat cycles.
When driving hard, the Z1SS does get greasy rather quickly. They'd start giving out after 2-2.5 hard laps back to back, but admittedly, I was overdriving them a bit as well. I was running 37psi hot (roughly 27 cold). A quick trip into the hot pits to cool down (~1 minute) allowed them to cool enough for another hot lap, but the surface temp was (guestimated) to be 60-70 degrees (cool to the touch). In comparison to the RS-3, the RS-3's took longer to heat up, but seem to take the heat better as well. When overheated, the RS-3's seemed to be more controllable.
On the drive home, I spent some time with the radio off and windows up to determine if the tire hum is still there at freeway speeds. It is. At 60-65, its not really noticeable, even when I was specifically listening for it. However, at 70, it is noticeable, and at 80, it is VERY evident. It gets higher pitched as you go faster; I'd suspect it gets worse at higher speeds.
Tire wear is much more even. With my (unchanged) alignment, I am not destroying the outer shoulders. Rather, I'm very close to the arrow; the minor wear would be from me sliding the car around. I don't have a pyrometer, but I would suspect my alignment is pretty close to what it should be for the Z1SS. The RS-3 definitely needs more camber to take full advantage of the tire. This is another area where the stiffer sidewall shows.
*edit 2/1/2011* (track day #3, Buttonwillow 13CW, mixed conditions)
I'm used to the road noise now. I still notice it, but for the most part, tune it out.
This track day was held in the rain! Conditions were mixed throughout the day. First session out was a warm-up, and the track was damp from heavy fog from the previous evening. Tires held up rather well compared to my friend who was in front of me on NT-05s, drifting. I thought he was doing it on purpose, but it turns out he just flat out had no grip. (His NT-05 are 8 track days old, and nearly bald; the inner edge is about to cord).
Second session was a dry session, and as before, the tires had excellent feedback, enabling me to push the car closer to the edge. I noticed something big here. The Z1SS gives a decent amount of audible feedback, whereas I never really noticed auditory feedback from the RS-3 unless I had gone way too far. I'll have to keep an eye (ear?) out for this when I go back to RS-3s on my next set. Based on the feedback, or lack of, I kept pushing harder in some corners, resulting in a lap that was closed to my personal best, but with a completely different line due to a slightly damp track; I was avoiding berms since coming back on track from the berms tended to upset the car. Due to weather conditions, I was running on 30 cold, and as a result, the tires did get greasy rather quickly. As before, a cooldown lap after two hot laps brought the tire temps down enough where I could do another hot lap.
Third session was in pouring rain. Lots of hydroplaning ensued, but it was manageable as long as you could see the puddle, and prepared for it by pointing the car in the direction you want it to go BEFORE the puddle. I tried sliding around a few lower speed turns, and had quite a bit of fun. Wet grip actually exceeded my expectations. As long as there weren't any puddles in the middle of the turn, I was typically carrying about 75% of the speed I would carry when the track was dry.
My next track day will be next Saturday at WSIR.
*edit 2/6/2011* (WSIR, 40-85 degrees)
Tires still have plenty of grip, and definitely good feedback. However, their sensitivity to heat was very apparent here. I could feel their grip changing every lap in a session, and by the 3rd or 4th hot lap, they'd be done. To be fair, I was going into turn 2 VERY hard with no lift at roughly 100, and sliding out of the Omega and around turn 5, as this let me carry more speed (special thanks to Charles Ng for giving me some more confidence in doing this). There was a moment where I nearly crapped myself, when I entered an unintentional slide entering turn 2, and ended up countering about half a turn on the steering wheel for 2/3 of the turn. After a quick ride-along with Charles, I was going around turn 2 with nearly no steering input, just quick corrections. The tires held up this abuse very well (refer to the pictures). I would have loved to have a set of RS3 to compare back to back at the track.
*edit 3/28/3011*
Z1SS are now off of the car. I had the chance to drive on them at both Autoclub speedway, and Streets of Willow again. Autoclub speedway was in wet conditions, and as expected, hydroplaning ensued at 80+ speeds, and driving line had to be altered to accommodate standing water. My front tires had more tread left, so I swapped them to the rears for this day (benefit of running non-staggered tires), and this may or may not have been the best idea; I did have a scary moment where I hydroplaned, and was headed straight toward a tire barrier. I decided to drive around it on the *other* side, and subsequently got black fagged for it.
Between this track day and the rainy day at Buttonwillow, this tire definitely has more hydroplane resistance than the RS-3. Street driving in the last few weeks which have been rainy confirms that. That being said, hydroplaning was still observed street driving, especially with the low tread the last few weeks before I had them replaced.
On my last track day with the tire, I (very surprisingly) ran a personal best of 1:26 at SoW CW, in a session where I felt I was fighting the tires the entire time. I ended the day with 2 offs (my first offs in over 6 months), both of them flying off track sideways. This resulted in getting grass and rocks stuck between the tires and the rims, and me deciding that I'd just dismount the tires and give them away as scrubs, rather than pay to remount them and only get 1 more track day out of them. I was supposed to go to Buttonwillow the following day, but elected not to go; my alignment had also been knocked out in the process, and the prospect of flying off track at near triple digit speeds wasn't too appealing.
Federal 595 RS-R Initial Impressions
All of that leads into my decision to get the Federal 595 RS-R to further compare. Initial impression is that these tires ride much much softer than the Z1SS, but not quite as soft as I remember the RS-3 to be. Grip is definitely comparable to other EHP tires, as far as I can tell street driving. In anticipation (and as a result of my off), I had set an appointment to get an alignment, and am now running -3.3 camber all around, which hopefully will be enough to keep from destroying the sidewalls.
I will update with track impressions after a track day on them on 4/10/2011. I will likely have a better impression after a second track day, which will be on 4/17/2011.
*edit* 4/11/2011
My impressions after a full day at Streets of Willow is that the federals are definitely comparable in grip to other EHP tires. I beat my previous personal best which was run on nearly finished Z1SS, which I suppose should be expected given that these are brand spankin new tires. However, I noticed that by my 2nd hot lap, my times would get slower, and the 3rd hot lap would be even worse. I'm not sure if I'm either 1. overdriving the car, 2. tires don't take heat well or 3. a combination of the previous two + my new alignment (less toe in the rear).
Even after a cooldown lap, a few turns into the next lap, I would already be fighting the rear again.
My fastest laps were with 38 hot, and I tried 37 and 36 throughout the day. I will use 38 hot at my next track day.
Overall verdict so far
Initial grip: RS3 >> Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS >> RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
Tire feel/feedback: Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): Z1SS >> RS3 > 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 >> Z1SS > 595RSR
Price 595RSR > RS3 >>> Z1SS
*edit* 4/14/2011
After having a discussion with Emilio (949 racing), I've concluded that I'm overheating the federals prematurely as a result of how I was driving at streets. I will retract my statement that they overheat too fast, and draw more conclusions after more seat time.
*edit* 4/18/2011
After driving at Buttonwillow (13CCW) at S2K Challenge #3, I've concluded that it is indeed the tire overheating too quickly, rather than my driving. I was watching my pressures very carefully, and also tried a few experiements.
These are my conclusions.
Federal sidewalls are on the softer side, but not too soft. They did well on -3.3 camber. They overheat quickly, and once overheated, they need a lot of time to cool down. I tried going on after about 30 minutes of cooling, and came off without even doing a single hot lap; they were still greasy. However, they require ZERO warmup time. You can go on track on the 595RS-R and drive hard without waiting for them to warm up.
Most importantly, you CANNOT spin or drift these tires. A single turn with some spin will overheat the tire, and they're pretty much done for the whole session. I confirmed this out by doing the sweeper at BW with zero counter. Oops.
These are probably a GREAT street tire and for spirited driving, but definitely not good on track. As far as wear goes, once they overheat or spin, they do wear a bit quickly. The edges of the tread were noticely feathering after a full session. Rear tires had about twice the wear of the fronts after the track day. Wear across each tire was pretty even with -3.3 camber.
Updated verdict
Overall verdict so far
Initial grip: RS3 >> Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
Tire feel/feedback: Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 >> Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >>> Z1SS
*edit* 5/13/2011
New tires are here! Bridgestone Potenza RE-11. The 595 RS-R wore more than I expected, given how little use they received.
Tires were mounted on 5/12 for a track day on 5/13. Initial street driving impression is that these tires are refined. It's like comparing the ride of a stock EVO vs a stock base Carrera. On-track results are similar, but the Porsche does it with a comfortable ride and quietly, while the Evo is harsh and brutish. The RE-11 is like the Porsche. We did notice that the RE-11 in 255/40/17 is slightly narrower than the Star Spec and 595 RS-R!
On-track impression.
As expected, the RE-11 does require about a lap to get up to temp and have all of their grip. However, the tire was very controllable. Grip was on par with Z1SS, but these tires gave more auditory feedback than the Z1SS. Surprising given that the tire is narrower than the Z1SS, and "less square" in its tread pattern. My first session was purposely done with 32 psi cold, with the intent of getting tire pressures too high. Even as tire pressures and tire temp went up, the tire remained solidly controllable, similar to the RS-3.
Wear (see pictures) was very even across the tire with -3.3 camber all around.
Additional testing will be done on 5/15 at Streets of Willow Springs; the forecast said a small chance for rain, so I may be able to get some rain impressions for the tire
Overall verdict so far as of 5/13.
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > RE11> Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS >> RS3 >> 595RSR RE11 TBD
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 > 595RSR RE11 TBD
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 595RSR not finished, RE11 TBD
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 = RE11 >> Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 > RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3 RE11 TBD
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
The RE-11 is the most expensive tire of the bunch, and although ROI per dollar spent has diminishing returns, I completely understand WHY it costs the most. Simply put, this is THE BEST daily driver tire of the bunch, that is still fully competitive at the track.
*edit* 5/18/2011
I went to another track day at Streets of Willow Springs on Sunday the 15th.
Weather proved to be very favorable for tire impressions. It was pouring rain during the drive up to the track, but sunny skies prevailed as we neared the track (thank you so-cal!). This tire proved to be just as good as the RE070 which originally came on my CR and STi; I was cruising up at 70+ in a steady rainfall with no signs of hydroplaning or traction loss. My poor friend was following me on nearly finished RS-3s, and I had to slow down for him. Of the tires covered in this post, the RE-11 is definitively the best tire in the rain.
At the track, I decided that I would turn the day into a personal car control clinic rather than trying to set a hot lap, partially due to the fact that I couldn't power out of turns (setup error? still trying to pinpoint this, as I've even gone as far as de-modding my car to eliminate variables and recent changes) and that I was scheduled to be instructing as well as giving ride-alongs.
These tires are COMMUNICATIVE. Not only do they provide feedback through feel, they provide excellent auditory feedback. I wasn't sure of this, as at Buttonwillow, there are patches that always generate tire noise, but that is not the case at SoWS. As you approach the limit of the RE-11, they start to make noise, giving you a very clear indication of how close you are to the edge. At about 80%, they start to emit a quiet roar, which will get louder and louder as you get close to the limit. It is loud enough when at 95%+ of the grip, it is very clearly audible over my J's 70RR. As stated before, the feedback through the steering wheel and chassis of the car is there, but not jarring at all; it is very unintrusive, and provides a fine balance between not feeling anything at all (Lexus) and feeling everything (Miata). Think of it as the Porsche of tires.
The Federals actually made me spin. I spun 4 times over my short experience with the tires, whereas I hadn't spun once since I had picked up my first set of RS-3s. Given that I had resigned any attempt at a fast lap, I was sliding around at the track, and the RE-11 proved to be excellent here as well. Although this is the first time I've actually purposely attempted to slide the car around the track, I was able to sustain slides through entire corners without spinning. It was very confidence inspiring to say the least.
After getting home, with 12 track sessions, 4 of which were done sliding, an additional ~20 ride-along laps (also sliding), and about 700 street miles, the tires are still wearing nearly perfectly evenly at -3.3 camber all around, and the rears measured at just over 8/32" tread.
Although I was initially very hesitant with spending this much for tires (friends still think I'm crazy), I'm thoroughly impressed with the RE-11.
Overall verdict so far as of 5/18.
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > RE11 = Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3 >> 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 > 595RSR RE11 TBD
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 595RSR not finished, RE11 TBD
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 > RE11 > Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction RE11 > Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
*edit 7/11/2011
After getting my car fixed, I had the opportunity to drive a few sessions at Buttonwillow in ~100 ambient temps. I have to say, RS-3 do hold up better in high heat. I was able to get ~2 hot laps after a warmup before the tires started giving up grip. I was walking around looking at other cars that run similar times, and the RS-3 definitely doesn't look as bad after a few sessions. Photos in the 2nd post.
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > RE11 = Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3 >> 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 > 595RSR RE11 TBD
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 595RSR not finished, RE11 TBD
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 > RE11 > Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction RE11 > Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
*edit 12/12/2011
After getting everything squared away with my car, it's clear that the Z1SS has more dry grip than the RE-11. However, the RE-11 does give more feedback, both through steering and sound. The Z1SS only makes noise as you lose traction, while the RE-11 gets loud as you hit about 80-85% of its grip limit.
Brief Summary of each tire
RS-3
- Softer sidewall; these definitely absorb bumps well, but are much softer than the rest of the tires in the category. Tires require more camber than most tires
- Immense amount of grip on the initial heat cycles. The first 5 seem to be excellent, with the next 5 being pretty good. After that, they quickly drop off, but remain very predictable.
- "Quiet" tire for street driving, they make white noise
- Somewhat peaky, typically have a 2 lap window to put your fastest lap time
- Requires some heat for maximum grip
- Tire makes noise when you get to like 98% of the limit, and quickly ramp up.
Z1SS
- Stiffer sidewall. Nearly as stiff as the RE070.
- Tires make a very noticeable whine while street driving.
- Tires drop off slowly, but not as quickly as RS3.
595 RS-R Added 3/28/2011!
- Softer sidewall. Slightly stiffer than RS-3, but definitely much softer than Z1SS.
- Tire noise (NVH) is present, but is a much "whiter" noise that blends well, rather than the whine of the Z1SS.
- Extremely peaky, greases out quickly
- Peak grip will be when the tires are still cold. Take a very easy warmup lap with this tire.
RE-11 Added 5/13/2011!
- Stiffer sidewall, but very refined ride. For small bumps, bruises, and bot dots, you *feel* them, but it is muted. You're aware that the road isn't perfect, but it is not harsh at all. For bigger bumps, it is just as harsh as the Z1SS.
- Tires are very quiet; the noise they make blends in very well for street driving
- Tires make a LOT of noise under hard driving. This tire is excellent for beginners, because they give excellent steering AND auditory feedback. The sound will change in pitch and volume as you get closer and closer to the limit
- Tires take heat well! They don't really grease out until theyre REALLY overheated
Z2
- Tires have more ultimate grip than the Z1SS
- Softer sidewall than the Z1SS; turn-in is not as crisp
- Tire is peakier and very tire pressure sensitive. The window for maximum grip is small
- Tire feel changes as tire pressures change throughout a session
Rival
- Tons of treat squirm.
- Builds heat very quickly, needs less cold pressure to get to hot pressure
- Consistent throughout session (less peaky)
- Excellent accel/braking grip, but lateral grip is not as good as RS3
- Once they get hot, they just won't cool down, even with cooldown laps.
- Tire makes noise when you get to about 90% of the limit, but the volume/tone doesn't really ramp up
- Extremely forgiving on slip angles (but also difficult to find ideal because it's so forgiving)
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > Rival = Z2 > RE11 = Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3 >> 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR
End of life grip: RE11 > Z1SS = Z2 > RS3 = 595RSR
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS > Z2 > Rival = 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Rival = Z1SS = Z2 >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 > RE11 = Z2 = Rival > Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 = Rival > Z2 > RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction RE11 > Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
Z1SS Initial impressions.
So far, I have about 3 miles on the tires, driving from the tire shop back to the office.
Inititial impressions are that the Starspecs ride harsher from the stiffer sidewalls and make a lot of whine. I'm not sure if the whine is from the tires being fresh, but New RS-3s, RE070, and NT-05 did not have this whine. It is something similar to what you would hear from a lifted truck with off-road tires on the freeway, but a lot less noisy. With the windows up, it was pretty much non-existent.
My suspicions are that the Z1SS will have better response on turn-in and transitions from the stiffer sidewalls, while the RS-3 have more grip during static turns. My tire wear may also be different in that I may get less wear on the outer shoulders. I'll also try to compare the drop-off in grip level compared to the RS-3.
I will be at the track on both Saturday and Sunday, and will update this post when I have time.
Some notes: All tires in question are 255/40/17, mounted on 8.5" rims.
*edit*
Commute home confirmed, the Z1SS don't roar like off-road tires, but rather have a "hum" to them. Its most noticeable at street speeds (35-45). At higher speeds (freeway), they blend in with other noise.
*edit 1/8/2011* (track day #1)
Fresh Z1SS vs Fresh RS-3, the RS-3 definitely has more grip. However, the Z1SS responds to inputs faster. I guess a good way to put it is that the steering is sharper. On the freeway it was noticeably twitchier.
Also, I was playing with tire pressures, and couldn't quite find a happy medium. The laps that *felt* the best were not my fastest laps. Rather, the laps where I felt it was a little disconnected were my fastest. I'll see if I can figure out pressures tomorrow, and also take a look at the data to see if it reflects anything.
Last, but not least, the clearest indication that the sidewalls are stiffer is the wear on the outer shoulders. The RS-3 would show some significant wear on the outer edges. My alignment is identical to before, and the tire wear isn't quite at the arrow.
*edit 1/9/2011* (track day #2 + drive home)
The Z1SS definitely give crisper response. The turn-ins are sharper, and I could transition weight left/right in esses a tad bit faster. I also noticed I could get bigger slides, and still recover. Unintentional drifts are fun when you're giving ride-alongs
However, again, fresh RS-3 vs fresh Z1SS, I'm 100% certain that the RS-3 is faster. After I get 2-3 more track days on these, I'll compare them to RS-3s with equivalent heat cycles. When driving hard, the Z1SS does get greasy rather quickly. They'd start giving out after 2-2.5 hard laps back to back, but admittedly, I was overdriving them a bit as well. I was running 37psi hot (roughly 27 cold). A quick trip into the hot pits to cool down (~1 minute) allowed them to cool enough for another hot lap, but the surface temp was (guestimated) to be 60-70 degrees (cool to the touch). In comparison to the RS-3, the RS-3's took longer to heat up, but seem to take the heat better as well. When overheated, the RS-3's seemed to be more controllable.
On the drive home, I spent some time with the radio off and windows up to determine if the tire hum is still there at freeway speeds. It is. At 60-65, its not really noticeable, even when I was specifically listening for it. However, at 70, it is noticeable, and at 80, it is VERY evident. It gets higher pitched as you go faster; I'd suspect it gets worse at higher speeds.
Tire wear is much more even. With my (unchanged) alignment, I am not destroying the outer shoulders. Rather, I'm very close to the arrow; the minor wear would be from me sliding the car around. I don't have a pyrometer, but I would suspect my alignment is pretty close to what it should be for the Z1SS. The RS-3 definitely needs more camber to take full advantage of the tire. This is another area where the stiffer sidewall shows.
*edit 2/1/2011* (track day #3, Buttonwillow 13CW, mixed conditions)
I'm used to the road noise now. I still notice it, but for the most part, tune it out.
This track day was held in the rain! Conditions were mixed throughout the day. First session out was a warm-up, and the track was damp from heavy fog from the previous evening. Tires held up rather well compared to my friend who was in front of me on NT-05s, drifting. I thought he was doing it on purpose, but it turns out he just flat out had no grip. (His NT-05 are 8 track days old, and nearly bald; the inner edge is about to cord).
Second session was a dry session, and as before, the tires had excellent feedback, enabling me to push the car closer to the edge. I noticed something big here. The Z1SS gives a decent amount of audible feedback, whereas I never really noticed auditory feedback from the RS-3 unless I had gone way too far. I'll have to keep an eye (ear?) out for this when I go back to RS-3s on my next set. Based on the feedback, or lack of, I kept pushing harder in some corners, resulting in a lap that was closed to my personal best, but with a completely different line due to a slightly damp track; I was avoiding berms since coming back on track from the berms tended to upset the car. Due to weather conditions, I was running on 30 cold, and as a result, the tires did get greasy rather quickly. As before, a cooldown lap after two hot laps brought the tire temps down enough where I could do another hot lap.
Third session was in pouring rain. Lots of hydroplaning ensued, but it was manageable as long as you could see the puddle, and prepared for it by pointing the car in the direction you want it to go BEFORE the puddle. I tried sliding around a few lower speed turns, and had quite a bit of fun. Wet grip actually exceeded my expectations. As long as there weren't any puddles in the middle of the turn, I was typically carrying about 75% of the speed I would carry when the track was dry.
My next track day will be next Saturday at WSIR.
*edit 2/6/2011* (WSIR, 40-85 degrees)
Tires still have plenty of grip, and definitely good feedback. However, their sensitivity to heat was very apparent here. I could feel their grip changing every lap in a session, and by the 3rd or 4th hot lap, they'd be done. To be fair, I was going into turn 2 VERY hard with no lift at roughly 100, and sliding out of the Omega and around turn 5, as this let me carry more speed (special thanks to Charles Ng for giving me some more confidence in doing this). There was a moment where I nearly crapped myself, when I entered an unintentional slide entering turn 2, and ended up countering about half a turn on the steering wheel for 2/3 of the turn. After a quick ride-along with Charles, I was going around turn 2 with nearly no steering input, just quick corrections. The tires held up this abuse very well (refer to the pictures). I would have loved to have a set of RS3 to compare back to back at the track.
*edit 3/28/3011*
Z1SS are now off of the car. I had the chance to drive on them at both Autoclub speedway, and Streets of Willow again. Autoclub speedway was in wet conditions, and as expected, hydroplaning ensued at 80+ speeds, and driving line had to be altered to accommodate standing water. My front tires had more tread left, so I swapped them to the rears for this day (benefit of running non-staggered tires), and this may or may not have been the best idea; I did have a scary moment where I hydroplaned, and was headed straight toward a tire barrier. I decided to drive around it on the *other* side, and subsequently got black fagged for it.
Between this track day and the rainy day at Buttonwillow, this tire definitely has more hydroplane resistance than the RS-3. Street driving in the last few weeks which have been rainy confirms that. That being said, hydroplaning was still observed street driving, especially with the low tread the last few weeks before I had them replaced.
On my last track day with the tire, I (very surprisingly) ran a personal best of 1:26 at SoW CW, in a session where I felt I was fighting the tires the entire time. I ended the day with 2 offs (my first offs in over 6 months), both of them flying off track sideways. This resulted in getting grass and rocks stuck between the tires and the rims, and me deciding that I'd just dismount the tires and give them away as scrubs, rather than pay to remount them and only get 1 more track day out of them. I was supposed to go to Buttonwillow the following day, but elected not to go; my alignment had also been knocked out in the process, and the prospect of flying off track at near triple digit speeds wasn't too appealing.
Federal 595 RS-R Initial Impressions
All of that leads into my decision to get the Federal 595 RS-R to further compare. Initial impression is that these tires ride much much softer than the Z1SS, but not quite as soft as I remember the RS-3 to be. Grip is definitely comparable to other EHP tires, as far as I can tell street driving. In anticipation (and as a result of my off), I had set an appointment to get an alignment, and am now running -3.3 camber all around, which hopefully will be enough to keep from destroying the sidewalls.
I will update with track impressions after a track day on them on 4/10/2011. I will likely have a better impression after a second track day, which will be on 4/17/2011.
*edit* 4/11/2011
My impressions after a full day at Streets of Willow is that the federals are definitely comparable in grip to other EHP tires. I beat my previous personal best which was run on nearly finished Z1SS, which I suppose should be expected given that these are brand spankin new tires. However, I noticed that by my 2nd hot lap, my times would get slower, and the 3rd hot lap would be even worse. I'm not sure if I'm either 1. overdriving the car, 2. tires don't take heat well or 3. a combination of the previous two + my new alignment (less toe in the rear).
Even after a cooldown lap, a few turns into the next lap, I would already be fighting the rear again.
My fastest laps were with 38 hot, and I tried 37 and 36 throughout the day. I will use 38 hot at my next track day.
Overall verdict so far
Initial grip: RS3 >> Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS >> RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
Tire feel/feedback: Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): Z1SS >> RS3 > 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 >> Z1SS > 595RSR
Price 595RSR > RS3 >>> Z1SS
*edit* 4/14/2011
After having a discussion with Emilio (949 racing), I've concluded that I'm overheating the federals prematurely as a result of how I was driving at streets. I will retract my statement that they overheat too fast, and draw more conclusions after more seat time.
*edit* 4/18/2011
After driving at Buttonwillow (13CCW) at S2K Challenge #3, I've concluded that it is indeed the tire overheating too quickly, rather than my driving. I was watching my pressures very carefully, and also tried a few experiements.
These are my conclusions.
Federal sidewalls are on the softer side, but not too soft. They did well on -3.3 camber. They overheat quickly, and once overheated, they need a lot of time to cool down. I tried going on after about 30 minutes of cooling, and came off without even doing a single hot lap; they were still greasy. However, they require ZERO warmup time. You can go on track on the 595RS-R and drive hard without waiting for them to warm up.
Most importantly, you CANNOT spin or drift these tires. A single turn with some spin will overheat the tire, and they're pretty much done for the whole session. I confirmed this out by doing the sweeper at BW with zero counter. Oops.
These are probably a GREAT street tire and for spirited driving, but definitely not good on track. As far as wear goes, once they overheat or spin, they do wear a bit quickly. The edges of the tread were noticely feathering after a full session. Rear tires had about twice the wear of the fronts after the track day. Wear across each tire was pretty even with -3.3 camber.
Updated verdict
Overall verdict so far
Initial grip: RS3 >> Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 (595 RSR not yet determined)
Tire feel/feedback: Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 >> Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >>> Z1SS
*edit* 5/13/2011
New tires are here! Bridgestone Potenza RE-11. The 595 RS-R wore more than I expected, given how little use they received.
Tires were mounted on 5/12 for a track day on 5/13. Initial street driving impression is that these tires are refined. It's like comparing the ride of a stock EVO vs a stock base Carrera. On-track results are similar, but the Porsche does it with a comfortable ride and quietly, while the Evo is harsh and brutish. The RE-11 is like the Porsche. We did notice that the RE-11 in 255/40/17 is slightly narrower than the Star Spec and 595 RS-R!
On-track impression.
As expected, the RE-11 does require about a lap to get up to temp and have all of their grip. However, the tire was very controllable. Grip was on par with Z1SS, but these tires gave more auditory feedback than the Z1SS. Surprising given that the tire is narrower than the Z1SS, and "less square" in its tread pattern. My first session was purposely done with 32 psi cold, with the intent of getting tire pressures too high. Even as tire pressures and tire temp went up, the tire remained solidly controllable, similar to the RS-3.
Wear (see pictures) was very even across the tire with -3.3 camber all around.
Additional testing will be done on 5/15 at Streets of Willow Springs; the forecast said a small chance for rain, so I may be able to get some rain impressions for the tire
Overall verdict so far as of 5/13.
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > RE11> Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS >> RS3 >> 595RSR RE11 TBD
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 > 595RSR RE11 TBD
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 595RSR not finished, RE11 TBD
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 = RE11 >> Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 > RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3 RE11 TBD
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
The RE-11 is the most expensive tire of the bunch, and although ROI per dollar spent has diminishing returns, I completely understand WHY it costs the most. Simply put, this is THE BEST daily driver tire of the bunch, that is still fully competitive at the track.
*edit* 5/18/2011
I went to another track day at Streets of Willow Springs on Sunday the 15th.
Weather proved to be very favorable for tire impressions. It was pouring rain during the drive up to the track, but sunny skies prevailed as we neared the track (thank you so-cal!). This tire proved to be just as good as the RE070 which originally came on my CR and STi; I was cruising up at 70+ in a steady rainfall with no signs of hydroplaning or traction loss. My poor friend was following me on nearly finished RS-3s, and I had to slow down for him
. Of the tires covered in this post, the RE-11 is definitively the best tire in the rain.At the track, I decided that I would turn the day into a personal car control clinic rather than trying to set a hot lap, partially due to the fact that I couldn't power out of turns (setup error? still trying to pinpoint this, as I've even gone as far as de-modding my car to eliminate variables and recent changes) and that I was scheduled to be instructing as well as giving ride-alongs.
These tires are COMMUNICATIVE. Not only do they provide feedback through feel, they provide excellent auditory feedback. I wasn't sure of this, as at Buttonwillow, there are patches that always generate tire noise, but that is not the case at SoWS. As you approach the limit of the RE-11, they start to make noise, giving you a very clear indication of how close you are to the edge. At about 80%, they start to emit a quiet roar, which will get louder and louder as you get close to the limit. It is loud enough when at 95%+ of the grip, it is very clearly audible over my J's 70RR. As stated before, the feedback through the steering wheel and chassis of the car is there, but not jarring at all; it is very unintrusive, and provides a fine balance between not feeling anything at all (Lexus) and feeling everything (Miata). Think of it as the Porsche of tires.
The Federals actually made me spin. I spun 4 times over my short experience with the tires, whereas I hadn't spun once since I had picked up my first set of RS-3s. Given that I had resigned any attempt at a fast lap, I was sliding around at the track, and the RE-11 proved to be excellent here as well. Although this is the first time I've actually purposely attempted to slide the car around the track, I was able to sustain slides through entire corners without spinning. It was very confidence inspiring to say the least.
After getting home, with 12 track sessions, 4 of which were done sliding, an additional ~20 ride-along laps (also sliding), and about 700 street miles, the tires are still wearing nearly perfectly evenly at -3.3 camber all around, and the rears measured at just over 8/32" tread.
Although I was initially very hesitant with spending this much for tires (friends still think I'm crazy), I'm thoroughly impressed with the RE-11.
Overall verdict so far as of 5/18.
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > RE11 = Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3 >> 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 > 595RSR RE11 TBD
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 595RSR not finished, RE11 TBD
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 > RE11 > Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction RE11 > Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
*edit 7/11/2011
After getting my car fixed, I had the opportunity to drive a few sessions at Buttonwillow in ~100 ambient temps. I have to say, RS-3 do hold up better in high heat. I was able to get ~2 hot laps after a warmup before the tires started giving up grip. I was walking around looking at other cars that run similar times, and the RS-3 definitely doesn't look as bad after a few sessions. Photos in the 2nd post.
Initial grip (when tire is new): RS3 > RE11 = Z1SS > 595RSR
Longevity (wear): Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3 >> 595RSR
Longevity (heat cycling): Z1SS > RS3 > 595RSR RE11 TBD
End of life grip: Z1SS > RS3 595RSR not finished, RE11 TBD
Tire feel/feedback: RE11 = Z1SS >> 595RSR > RS3
Tire feedback (auditory): RE11 > Z1SS >> RS3 = 595RSR
Tire's ability to handle heat: RS3 > RE11 > Z1SS >> 595RSR
Time taken to warm up: 595RSR > Z1SS = RE11 >> RS3
Street driving noise level RE11 > RS3 > 595RSR > Z1SS
Wet (standing water) traction RE11 > Z1SS >>> 595RSR > RS3
Price 595RSR > RS3 >> Z1SS > RE-11
*edit 12/12/2011
After getting everything squared away with my car, it's clear that the Z1SS has more dry grip than the RE-11. However, the RE-11 does give more feedback, both through steering and sound. The Z1SS only makes noise as you lose traction, while the RE-11 gets loud as you hit about 80-85% of its grip limit.
01-07-2011, 05:25 PM
#2
Thread Starter
Tire wear (rear) before RS-3's were dismounted today. Note the outer vs inner edge wear, even with the camber. Tires are both daily driven and driven at the track. I do rotate front-rear to even out the wear.
RS-3 with 1 track day on them. Obviously, I need more camber.
*edit* 1/9/2011
Rear left tire after ~2 track days with 5 full sessions and giving a lot of ride-alongs for 2-3 laps. Notice the even wear.
Front left tire
Rear left tire
*edit* 2/6/2011
After WSIR and a drive home.
*edit* 3/28/2011
Z1SS dismounted
Federal 595 RS-R mounted
Comparison of the width of the Z1SS vs 595 RS-R. Please note that I forgot to do this before the 595 RS-R was mounted, so the Z1SS is "free" while the 595 RS-R is on a 8.5" rim. 8.5" is the narrowest width recommended for a 255 tire, so it may have impacted the visual width of the tire.
*edit* 5/13/2011
Front left RE-11 after 3 sessions on track (buttonwillow 13cw)
Rear left RE-11 after 3 sessions on track
Front left RE-11 after 7 track sessions and drive home
RE-11 outer edge (front left)
RE-11 inner edge (front left)
Unmounted Z1SS vs 595RS-R
RE-11 vs Z1SS
595 RS-R vs RE-11
*edit* 7/11/2011
Left rear after a session in ~100F temps at Buttonwillow 13CW
Left front tire
Close-up
*edit* 12/12/11
Loose Z1SS vs RE-11
5/27/2013
Tested a lot of Rivals...
RS-3 with 1 track day on them. Obviously, I need more camber.
*edit* 1/9/2011
Rear left tire after ~2 track days with 5 full sessions and giving a lot of ride-alongs for 2-3 laps. Notice the even wear.
Front left tire
Rear left tire
*edit* 2/6/2011
After WSIR and a drive home.
*edit* 3/28/2011
Z1SS dismounted
Federal 595 RS-R mounted
Comparison of the width of the Z1SS vs 595 RS-R. Please note that I forgot to do this before the 595 RS-R was mounted, so the Z1SS is "free" while the 595 RS-R is on a 8.5" rim. 8.5" is the narrowest width recommended for a 255 tire, so it may have impacted the visual width of the tire.
*edit* 5/13/2011
Front left RE-11 after 3 sessions on track (buttonwillow 13cw)
Rear left RE-11 after 3 sessions on track
Front left RE-11 after 7 track sessions and drive home
RE-11 outer edge (front left)
RE-11 inner edge (front left)
Unmounted Z1SS vs 595RS-R
RE-11 vs Z1SS
595 RS-R vs RE-11
*edit* 7/11/2011
Left rear after a session in ~100F temps at Buttonwillow 13CW
Left front tire
Close-up
*edit* 12/12/11
Loose Z1SS vs RE-11
5/27/2013
Tested a lot of Rivals...
01-07-2011, 06:12 PM
#4
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 1,839
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
10 Posts
I've tried both Z1 and RS-3 on the track when they were fresh. RS-3 definitely has more grip. Never tried RS-3 when they were worn, so longevity is a question mark.
The Z1's dropped off in performance long before the tire was used up. I wonder if this is going to be a common theme among the newer Extreme Performance street tires, as they get closer and closer to DOT-R performance, perhaps because of shared formulation. I wonder if the best way is to use them till the performance level drops off, then sell them for cheap and use the money toward a fresh set.
My next set of tires will probably be the RS-3, though Z1 is the next best choice at this price point. I absolutely hated the Nitto NT05, and never tried the Federal 595 RS-R, though I've been hearing good things about them.
The Z1's dropped off in performance long before the tire was used up. I wonder if this is going to be a common theme among the newer Extreme Performance street tires, as they get closer and closer to DOT-R performance, perhaps because of shared formulation. I wonder if the best way is to use them till the performance level drops off, then sell them for cheap and use the money toward a fresh set.
My next set of tires will probably be the RS-3, though Z1 is the next best choice at this price point. I absolutely hated the Nitto NT05, and never tried the Federal 595 RS-R, though I've been hearing good things about them.
01-08-2011, 07:42 AM
#6
Thanks for posting!
Do you have data or anything that shows the drop off in performance on RS3's, or was it via the butt dyno? And I assume by "heat cycle" you mean "track day" (as opposed to an autocross heat cycle)
Do you have data or anything that shows the drop off in performance on RS3's, or was it via the butt dyno? And I assume by "heat cycle" you mean "track day" (as opposed to an autocross heat cycle)
Trending Topics
01-08-2011, 11:06 AM
#9
Having used both I will add that I feel the Hankook gives better feedback despite being softer, It needs a little more heat than the Dunlop but also can take more heat. The dunlop seemed to be slightly better in the rain. I think the Hankook has more grip in the dry overall
My experience: 2 sets of Dunlops and now on my first set of kooks. Autox, DD, and twisties.
My experience: 2 sets of Dunlops and now on my first set of kooks. Autox, DD, and twisties.
