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2nd Gear Grind Fix Anyone ever done this?

#1 User is offline   A 2 

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  Posted 19 February 2011 - 04:59 PM

I drive very slowly until the car warms up. I avoid trying to grind gears, but it keeps happening to me. More on the Si than in the S2000.

8th Civic has a DIY, to adjust the clutch and fix the grind. As I was scrolling through our forums I also came across the following links:


http://www.s2ki.com/...howtopic=847071

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showt...0&#entry5612837

Has anyone on here ever tried this? What would be the pros & cons of doing this?

I have always been led to believe that a clutch must have a little play. Doing this fix may take care of the grind but leave you with absolutely no play in the clutch.

Your thoughts and opinions are welcome.



#2 User is offline   markpenske 

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 05:28 PM

I was planned on at least looking at adjusting the clutch play this spring.
I also read that changing the clutch fluid might help, but I have no idea how to do this.
My 2nd gear grind seems to go away after 5-15 mintues driving (depending on the temperature)
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Posted 19 February 2011 - 06:27 PM

I agree the grind goes away after the car has warmed up. When running cold I try to be extra cautious going from first to second and never rush the gear lever.

Sometimes I'm led to think it's probably my technique that is faulty. I always depress the clutch pedal fully, but when I hear a grind, my next thought is "did I press it in fully or not??"

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:32 AM

I have the same problem. Seems to be an ap2 issue. This spring I'm replacing the fluid and having an ap1 flywheel installed along with other stuff. Hopefully that will eliminate the grind.
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#5 User is offline   Bugsy 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:45 AM

Had the 2nd gear grind if I got frisky going 1st to 2nd in a big hurry ONLY in my old 03.
The 07 had been perfect...
I do think the new MTL is good stuff.
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Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:27 PM

Replaced the MTF in the Si end of November. Grind still happens when I'm in a hurry.

Last night when I went out in the Si, I made sure each time I pressed the clutch in, it was all the way. Grind was still happening on the 1-2 shift when in a hurry.

With the S, it is smoother and not much of an issue once the engine warms up.

I think I'll try that fix described on the Si when its warmer and see if I like it any better. Must add though that I'm not comfortable moving the friction point way up to the top.

#7 User is offline   zzziippyyy 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:52 PM

I have never experienced this 2nd gear grind issue :shrug:

FTR I run Honda MTF and change it twice annual whether I drive 5 miles or 5000 miles a season.
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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:09 PM

^^^^Seems like overkill to me, but if it works for you...l
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#9 User is offline   zzziippyyy 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:17 PM

Quote

^^^^Seems like overkill to me, but if it works for you...l

No 2nd gear grind here ;) and whats $10 and 10 minutes while Im doing an oil change? as much as I don't get all excited about my S and mods etc on here I will say that you will be hard pressed to find a better maintained one anywhere.

Not that you guys don't maintain yours as I know most of you do. :)

#10 User is offline   Mark355 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:35 PM

The only problem with my 2nd gear is it will sometimes, albeit rarely, move itself into neutral with a loud popping noise upon deceleration below 20 mph. I've learned to just hold the lever in place in 2nd at low speeds. I run Honda MTFv2. Never experienced a grind, but I'm as cautious with my upshifts as I am with going down in the gearbox. Revmatching in both directions is a must otherwise the tranny is taking a beating.

Since the difference in ratios in the largest, changing gear from 1st to 2nd involves a significant drop in rpm. Maybe shifting slower into 2nd when the tranny is cold will alleviate the grind?
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#11 User is offline   zzziippyyy 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:55 PM

Aashish just throwing this in here. Do you skip gears when you shift? Either up or down?

#12 User is offline   Bugsy 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:14 PM

Quote

Aashish just throwing this in here. Do you skip gears when you shift? Either up or down?

Old wives tale re skipping shifts.
Don't fall for that one zip.
I've repaired tons of transmissions, and it's either bent forks, damaged detents, bad dogs, or worn or slipping syncro cones/ring.
S2000 had a pretty stout tranny. The cones have been updated a few times to address the graunch. The attempt is to get second gear output to spin up faster as you come out of the neutral gate. I think they got it licked.

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:20 PM

I get 2nd gear grind on my AP1 only when the tranny is cold and I'm rushing the shift. Honda MTFv2 has helped a lot. I change mine once a year.
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#14 User is offline   zzziippyyy 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:32 PM

Quote

Old wives tale re skipping shifts.
Don't fall for that one zip.
I've repaired tons of transmissions, and it's either bent forks, damaged detents, bad dogs, or worn or slipping syncro cones/ring.
S2000 had a pretty stout tranny. The cones have been updated a few times to address the graunch. The attempt is to get second gear output to spin up faster as you come out of the neutral gate. I think they got it licked.

Thanks for the info Jeff, on S2KI there are many threads addressing skipping shifts and purported damage from doing so to the synchros but I would not know first hand I'll take your word for it as you have first hand experience.

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:48 PM

Found this on the other forum:

Here is the Link

Quote

"I am the woodwork and I work for American Honda.
I am writing this to hopefully help S2000 owner/drivers understand the importance of shifting properly to minimize the damage to 2nd gear synchronizer rings. I'm not the Warranty Police but will from time to time quote warranty policy when I read things like "Shifting without the clutch".

My overall objective being in the woodwork is to keep S2000 owners from hurting themselves and hurting their cars. Everytime a transmission or engine gets replaced in an S2000 I get the part. I've seen a lot of damaged transmissions.

Before flaming me please read this and keep an open mind.

You have an engine that revs to 9000 RPM. That means that the transmission mainshaft and clutch disk are also revving to 9000 RPM. When you disengage the clutch (push in the pedal) to shift from first to second the engine and the transmission are disconnected. The engine will slow down from compression when you lift off the throttle. The mainshaft of the transmission is not connected to the engine any more so it is freewheeling in the transmission. Given enough time the mainshaft will slow down but not as fast as the engine. The countershaft is connected to the rear wheels and the speed stays constant during the shift.

When you shift into 2nd gear the synchronizer of the 2nd gear must SLOW DOWN the transmission mainshaft to match the speed that the engine WILL be going when the shift is completed and the clutch is engaged.

The transmission mainshaft and the clutch disk together weigh 19.75 lbs. (not including the pressure plate and flywheel that are connected to the engine) When you shift from 1st to 2nd at 9000 RPM the engine speed drops to 5900. That means that the little brass synchronizer rings have to push on the 2nd gear to slow the mainshaft from 9000RPM to 5900 RPM. It not only has to slow down the mainshaft it has to do it in the time that it takes you to shift. So if you have a tendency to shift fast you may be making the sleeve blow past the synchro rings before it has a chance to do it's job and it will smash into the 2nd gear.

The early '00 cars needed a little change to the sleeve to make the synchros work a little harder. That is what the new parts in the service bulletin are for. Cars after VIN YT006255 already have the new parts. Grinding in a car produced later than 6255 is possible if the synchros have been damaged and now are not able to slow down the mainshaft properly.

Shifting without the clutch, or, shift too quickly and not letting the synchros do their job may permanently damage the gear, sleeve and synchros and make the 2nd gear grind more often.

It makes sense that if shifting at 6000 makes the engine speed drop to 4300 RPM, (1700) into 2nd gear then you should give the 2nd gear synchro twice the time to do the shift from 9000 RPM.

If your car does grind once in a while you may not want the transmission removed, disassembled and a new 2nd gear put in. If it does it quite often, show it to the dealer and have it replaced.

If you hesitate for another 1/2 second while putting constant pressure on the shifter while the 2nd gear synchro does it's job, I'll bet many of your cars would not grind any more. Try it. You might like it.

Added 5-2-03:
Skipping gears:
I have seen many 6th gear sleeves that have been damaged.

The typical story is this: Stop light, 1st gear, engage the clutch, rev to 9,000 RPM, shift quickly to 2nd, rev to 9,000 RPM, same into 3rd, look down and find the car going 80 MPH on a city street and the engine noise is screaming, recognize that any cop is going to write a ticket. Shift to 6th quickly to lower engine noise.

Dragging the mainshaft speed down from 9,000 RPM to 4,000 when going from 3rd to 6th takes time. 6th gear has only a single synchro ring and it doesn't like it. It will grind if you are shifting hard and fast. By shifting hard the synchro ring does not have time to slow down the main-shaft and the sleeve will slip over the synchro and grind the gear. If the sleeve is ground enough in 6th then it will not slide the other way to engage 5th.

So if it is hard to get your car into 5th or 6th it may be because the sleeve is being damaged by skipping gears. Hope this makes sense. "


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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:50 PM

I drive like this. Is this why I have the grind :LOL:

It is supposedly the "PROPER" way to shift.

====
[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMD1YZSxyjo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMD1YZSxyjo[/URL]

#17 User is offline   Bugsy 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:01 PM

Now THAT skipping scenario makes sense, but wow, wide open 3rd then slam to 6th ?
Wow. Just wow

#18 User is offline   Mark355 

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:53 PM

Quote

I drive like this. Is this why I have the grind :LOL:

It is supposedly the "PROPER" way to shift.

Painful to watch. Dude thinks he's on Best Motoring.

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:57 PM

Are you sure you're pulling directly back on the shifter? If you're pulling to one side or the other, you'll get some grinding. Work on your technique, and stop the 9k (or 8k) shifting.


Or double clutch.



Mark, you're not fully engaging 2nd gear. I've done that too - happens when I'm on my way home from work and tired and not paying attention and my shifts are getting sloppy.
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Posted 20 February 2011 - 06:08 PM

:iagree:

I've actually had issues with mine popping out of 1st gear and it's been
my fault for being sloppy and not fully engaging the gear.
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Posted 20 February 2011 - 08:07 PM

Quote

Painful to watch. Dude thinks he's on Best Motoring.

Turns out he responded to flames in such a bad way after people saw the video, that he was banned for a while from 8thCivic.


In any case I dont launch my car and am as ginger as can be to while going first to second. I'll have to be more wary though. Surely with the passage of time this will become a non-issue.


As far as popping out of gears goes. Happened on the Si first winter even though it was built after Honda had discovered and corrected the issue in older VINs. That 3rd gear pop-out has since disappeared as the tranny has broken-in.

On the S I had it pop out of 3rd once, but it was because I had pushed it with half the usual effort .

Dave - Skip shifting is perfectly ok if done the right way is what I've been told. Jackie Stewart recommends it in his book. Never skip shift on the way up but do a 5 to 3 if the corner (not this :corner: ) calls for it.

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 07:58 AM

I had the 2nd gear grind till I changed the transmission fluid about 3 years into ownership. The grind (almost) disappeared.

Had the transmission fluid changed again last spring. It came back with a vengeance. Not only does it grind, but occasionally when cold, the transmission will literally pop out of 2nd gear. It is the only gear that does this.

Its all about the transmission fluid I think.
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#23 User is offline   markpenske 

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:45 AM

I changed to the newer version of Honda's MT fluid. No change, same grind when cold.

#24 User is offline   Crazy_Schizo 

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:02 AM

I wish wish wish wish wish wish wish wish wish I knew what fluid was used when I had it changed the first time. I know it made a huge difference.

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:10 AM

If you order new synchros/gear sets for you AP1 they all supersed to the AP2 carbon coated syncros. I wish gearspeed would start selling them.

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