[c32b]

Recently chatted in a local car forum regarding heel and toe downshifting technique. There was quite a bit of controversy about whether the technique was required.

Based on driving literature and my own anecdotal experience, the difference is marked and I would approach refining my shifting first before attempting to clip an apex quicker or dive in later on braking.

Yet others seem to feel differently, for e.g.
"...not absolutely needed as proven by some racers who have won competitions..."
"...heel and toe isnt that important and dont worry too much about it..."
"...heel and toe not so important...better to focus more effort on the braking..."

Just wondering what the drivers here think.

[robrob]

I'm a big fan of heel-and-toe down shifts. Adding engine braking to true threshold braking and you've got a skid. It might be a short one but it's still not optimal. It's also more important for car control when braking hard in a corner where a skid has more negative consequence. The fact that all Formula 1 cars' transmissions match revs during down shifts trumps all arguments to the contrary.

Most of us don't drive at the level where it makes a big difference but Skip, the S2000 lap record holder around Summit Point, doesn't heel-and-toe. I'm 7/100s off the record and I do. The fastest guy I've ever seen in an S2000, Rene, does h&t. It makes me wonder how much faster could Skip be if he did h&t.

The proper method is to keep your heel on the floor mat while braking and use the right side of your right foot to roll over to depress the throttle for the blip. I had to add a pedal extension to the S2000 to allow me to do it properly. Some actually use their heel to blip the throttle but if you use that technique you lose the fine muscle control allowed by keeping your heel on the mat and using your feet and even toe muscles to modulate the brakes. With your heel in the air you're using your thigh muscles and your body is more likely to move around under braking making fine control more difficult.



Here's a link to my web page about heel-and-toeing: http://robrobinette....2000HeelToe.htm

[dan_uk]

I don't know how you can not heel toe and be fast but some people seem to?
Before I learnt I had to brake earlier then come off the brake to blip the throttle.
So you end up clutch in, coasting while you blip the throttle.. doesn't feel good at all.
Now I heel toe I can brake later, downshift/revmatch and keep my foot coverring the brake if I need till I'm back on the gas.

I heel toe with the front of my foot/toes on the brake, the back of my foot is off the floor then twists right to catch the side of accelerator.
Its easier to do if you grab pull the gas pedal over a bit just be carefull its not too close else you end up hitting the brake and gas at the same time.

I still row thru every gear on multi downshifts and let the clutch out on each one to engine brake.
I think I lose time doing this and am wasting my clutch but I don't want to overrev and its good practice.

[dan_uk]

I think this guy does proper heel toe without left foot braking and lets the clutch out on each downshift
If I could get half this good I'd be pretty happy
He uses his left foot to just get the brakes ready like they do in these cars

[lovegroova]

I use the heel in the air technique (I picked it up from some of the Best Motoring videos), although I tend to do it too early, as shown here at Spa.

It does result in fewer rear lockups over my previous "normal" technique, so is a benefit for your average track day amateur.

[Triple-H]

I cannot fathom running around the track not using heel and toe techniques!

And for the record, I frequently skip gears when heel toeing, such as 4th to 2nd
I have never felt the need to row down just one gear at a time in the car, and of course on the bike, I skip shifts all the time
6th revmatched down to 3rd, then full throttle acceleration trying to keep the front tire on the ground is when the fun just starts to kick in

[robrob]

Quote

I still row thru every gear on multi downshifts and let the clutch out on each one to engine brake.

I brake and hit the clutch at the same time so the ABS isn't fighting the idling engine. I let the revs drop to idle while I'm braking and when I'm ready to down shift I blip the throttle for the clutch release (not the shift itself). The downside to this technique is you have to know what gear you need. On a new track rowing down through the gears will let you discover what gear is best for each corner. The major downside of rowing down through the gears is no matter how good you are you will alter the brake pedal pressure during the heel and toe.

[dan_uk]

robrob, on 02 June 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:

Quote

I still row thru every gear on multi downshifts and let the clutch out on each one to engine brake.

I brake and hit the clutch at the same time so the ABS isn't fighting the idling engine. I let the revs drop to idle while I'm braking and when I'm ready to down shift I blip the throttle for the clutch release (not the shift itself). The downside to this technique is you have to know what gear you need. On a new track rowing down through the gears will let you discover what gear is best for each corner. The major downside of rowing down through the gears is no matter how good you are you will alter the brake pedal pressure during the heel and toe.

I think I need to start skipping sometimes but if I keep practicing I should get good enough it makes no difference
I mean the engine braking effect is on the rear wheels I never locked a rear on the brake

[robrob]

Threshold braking--getting close to 100% out of your brakes and tires--is a very fine line (but masked by ABS) and the foot pedal movements during heel-and-toe are enough to move you away from 100%. Most people release some brake pressure during the throttle blip. Take a look at pretty much any non-professional racer's acquisition data during braking and you'll see brake pressure and/or deceleration varying during braking while shifting.

[CKit]

dan_uk, on 02 June 2011 - 08:14 AM, said:

I still row thru every gear on multi downshifts and let the clutch out on each one to engine brake.
I think I lose time doing this and am wasting my clutch but I don't want to overrev and its good practice.

Not sure if I'm right or wrong, but I row through gears to get transmission shaft up to speed. I don't clutch in and out for each gear during a heel-toe, though.

[miamirice]

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't agree that the Porsche driver is heel/toe. I think he is saving wear and tear on a sequential gear box on the down shifts and I think his left foot braking is to rotate the car.

[A 2]

robrob, on 02 June 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

Threshold braking--getting close to 100% out of your brakes and tires--is a very fine line (but masked by ABS) and the foot pedal movements during heel-and-toe are enough to move you away from 100%. Most people release some brake pressure during the throttle blip. Take a look at pretty much any non-professional racer's acquisition data during braking and you'll see brake pressure and/or deceleration varying during braking while shifting.

What I've been told and practice today is to be firmest on the brake pedal at the point of blipping the gas pedal. The idea being to progressively increase braking to the point of the down-shift and decrease it gradually once the downshift is complete. IIRC, Jackie Stewart also mentions something along those lines in his book. I dont have a data acquisition system though so have no proof of how effective I'm at it. My only measurement is the degree to which the car feels settled.

[robrob]

It looks like the Porsche guy is heel-and-toeing in a textbook manner-keeping his heel on the floor and blipping with the right side of his foot. I agree his left foot braking is simply to preposition the brake pads in contact with the rotor for the upcoming brake zone.

Quote

What I've been told and practice today is to be firmest on the brake pedal at the point of blipping the gas pedal.

You want to take your brakes to just short of a skid--the skid threshold. If you're driving a formula car with lots of down force you will use more brake pressure at the beginning of the brake zone, while at high speed and high down force. As the car slows you'll have to reduce braking pressure as speed and down force decrease.

In the S2000, especially without a wing, the car is a little light near top speed so you have to start your braking a little easier and add some pressure as you slow and stabilize (rear end stops moving around so much).

To maximize the use of your tires' traction you want to stay at the braking threshold as much as possible, not vary the brake pressure for a down shift. A well rev-matched down shift will allow you to stay smooth and maximize braking.

[Driven]

From my experience with watching students... those who don't heel-and-toe have very abrupt downshifts or are slow to exit corners cause they are trying to rev-match.

[c32b]

This is very interesting. with all the benefits that heel toe confers, how then do the drivers who don't use heel toe manage to get such good times? They must be compensating somewhere else.

I also use the side foot method as its the most comfortable for me. I use a Performance Box and the data line has shown that I have comparatively less braking G variation than quite a few drivers during the blipping process which is some of the positive take away I got. Of course the rest of how I screwed up the rest of the apexes suddenly became painfully evident as well

[josh7owens]

I learned to heal toe in the s2k and now I do it without thinking, even when I'm DDing, it's almost natural. This is my fav heal toe (on video) even though the power of first gear up setted the tires.

watch at 1:51 black s2k, on stock shocks, 255 kooks and gendron solid bar on full stiff.

This post has been edited by josh7owens: 03 June 2011 - 08:43 AM

[EternalShadowAW]

You don't HAVE to heel and toe to be fast. Just takes practice in different techniques

[tunerplayground]

I'm still struggling to heel/toe in my s2k because I have hard time reaching the gas pedal with my foot on the brake. I just recently got a Sparco race pedal set so I'm hoping it'll help. In the meantime I drive just like Gilles Panizzi, I basically downshift and let the clutch up with my foot fully on the brake, so the ABS fights the engine a bit and sometimes I'll get a small chirp into corners (I can also feel it in the brake pedal).

[Billj747]

dan_uk, on 02 June 2011 - 08:17 AM, said:

I think this guy does proper heel toe without left foot braking and lets the clutch out on each downshift
If I could get half this good I'd be pretty happy
He uses his left foot to just get the brakes ready like they do in these cars

Dog-ring sequential gearboxes aren't the best example of heel-toe downshifting. The clutch isn't needed on those downshifts, and the dog rings engage with a lot more differentiation in speed/slop than synchros do.

[lltysonll]

same here josh, I do this every day, feels natural.

[dan_uk]

Billj747, on 05 June 2011 - 05:41 PM, said:

dan_uk, on 02 June 2011 - 08:17 AM, said:

I think this guy does proper heel toe without left foot braking and lets the clutch out on each downshift
If I could get half this good I'd be pretty happy
He uses his left foot to just get the brakes ready like they do in these cars

Dog-ring sequential gearboxes aren't the best example of heel-toe downshifting. The clutch isn't needed on those downshifts, and the dog rings engage with a lot more differentiation in speed/slop than synchros do.

ok so what do you think is the best way to do it on a regular transmission to let the clutch out on each gear or skip gears?

[Billj747]

dan_uk, on 05 June 2011 - 07:49 PM, said:

ok so what do you think is the best way to do it on a regular transmission to let the clutch out on each gear or skip gears?

For a car/system with inadequate braking, rowing through the gears and using the transmission to slow the car down has benefits over skip shifting. For cars with adequate braking, either is fine and both can be done very quickly and efficiently.


0.02

[robrob]

Quote

ok so what do you think is the best way to do it on a regular transmission to let the clutch out on each gear or skip gears?

In the S2000 I recommend skipping gears and focusing on maximizing your braking. You compromise your braking every time you down shift whether you heel & toe or not.

[jon3501447]

I can't imagine racing without heel-toe'ing it. When coming to the end of a long straight-away with a fast bend, simply braking then slipping or popping the clutch at the end of braking completely unsettles the rear. It's a bad practice for your clutch (higher wear) and it forces your rear to walk around on you.

Rev matching and silmultaneously braking allows your engine to help you brake while getting you ready to shoot out of a corner. This is especially prevalent when barreling down to the 'bowl' going CCW at SOW. If you trail brake that thing and pop or slip the clutch the rear-end is going to walk around on you and pull you off the track.

Also, once you know how to heel-toe properly, it litteraly becomes second nature and does NOT eat up any precious time in a competitiive setting.

[street_ruler]

i know this doesnt help, but i literally revv match every shift that i do in my daily driving. Im not threshold braking with it, i just feel that its saving wear on things and it shifts so much smoother.

I cant imagine not doing it on a track and doing the annoying "clutch drag" mid corner