Mother of all door speakers for the S2000
07-23-2011, 03:00 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mother of all door speakers for the S2000
Ideal speaker for pure midbass duty (3 way crossed with a midrange): 63hz-200hz - Peerless SLS 6.5
Ideal speaker for 2 way duty (can cross high with a tweeter): 63hz-4,000hz - B&C 6NDL44
First impression of the SLS based on build quality
These are the beefiest 6.5" I've laid eyes on. The surround finally looks like it can handle the long stroke required. Unlike the CSS SDX7 drivers I bought last time these are much fatter and much more rigid. The spider is even larger in my eyes than the CSS. I've seen raised spiders in my life but not like this, the whole basket is constructed to raise it substantially.
The basket has a lot more venting then I thought as well. It's bellow and above the spider.
The tinsel leads are flat and integrated into the spider. These seem to handle some power, again a lot nicer than the CSS.
The magnet is oversized and there is a bumped back plate for extra stroke. I can't really compare with the B&C 6ndl44 bellow or the CSS as those are neo. I'm going to be handling these by the magnet, any other way seems downright scary! The workmanship itself is spotless, glue joints, surround, connection post etc.
Playing on my desk everything shakes like mad at very little excursion. This little guy is to be feared!
First Impression B&C
Rugged pro audio speakers, no bling, just the ideal materials for the job. These guys have the most potent 7" speaker voice coil on the market, rated and tested 3rd party at 200w continuous. The small neo magnet is probably top notch quality as it is also the strongest I've seen in a 7". Also note the rather large pole vent. It has a mean grille to keep little babies from getting sucked in. The connection posts are top notch, large and beefy. The basket is aluminum to save even more weight and it has a circular surround protection ring so you can sit them on the front if you wish or to protect against the elements.
It does not have the sheer excursion of the SLS above but offers more power handling, sensitivity and therefore output for midrange use.
Testing Results
I tested both in my doors at the same volume level, 36/62. The SLS has a 4 ohm coil which means it's getting 320w whereas the B&C is 8 ohm and therefore gets 180w. This corresponds to a theoretical 3db or so. The crossovers are 20hz, 20khz so that you all get to see what they can do in your application as well.
FR
B&C red
SLS black
It seems like cabin gain does helps them both dig down to about 40hz. The output is almost identical between the two 20hz to 200hz. The SLS is however getting almost double the power so it is 3db less sensitive than the PA driver for midbass duty. Over 200hz the SLS gets its ass kicked severely. The B&C then is at least 3db more sensitive even down low, and works as a 2 way woofer. The SLS gets no points here, but all these drawbacks do come from its sheer clean excursion. The SlS is a pure midbass, it makes no other claims. Usable bands based on -3 db points:
B&C: 40hz-4,000hz
SLS: 40hz-800hz
Note the PA driver has a rising response on axis, which is why even over the 200hz-800hz interval it has more output in my door. The dip in the midrange seen in my pillar pods is here for the door mounted woofers too. Note the wide dip 300hz-1,2khz in both drivers.
Picture time!
Look at how much higher the spider is on the SLS, a full inch, maybe more! That makes for a lot more clean throw. Peerless probably designed this basket in-house. All the other 7s using off the shelf parts are going to have a hard time competing with this purpose built basket. You can always throw a big stupid magnet on a basket but in this case it's all beefed up to support it. I feel this is also the reason the XXLS sub has been the reference since the beginning, it had the suspension to match the beefy motor before anybody even acknowledged it mattered.
The fitment is gnarly in the S2000. The door panel has been trimmed to the max but I haven't trimmed the window stopper behind it. There is 1mm between the bumped back plate and the stopper! I love it when I use the space to the max! If the TB speaker is any deeper it wouldn't fit. I could shave 2mm off that stopper before it stops working properly, that's not enough. Looks like the SLS and the S2000 are a match made in heaven.
THD testing next!
THD
A crossover was implemented to test the driver in a realistic application. I used a high pass xover of 63hz and 24db slopes. No low pass was used.
B&C HD @ 100db
SLS
B&C HD @ 105db
SLS
B&C HD @ 110db
SLS
HD @ 100db: Both are excellent up to 200hz .8% or under. Over 200hz the SLS is merely average until 300hz and rather poor all the way after that. The B&C is superb with the exception of 1,500hz and 3,000hz. I suspect the lightweight cone is a little too soft and breaks up a bit up top, still great but other 7"s might do better over 1,500hz.
HD @ 105db: Same performance as at the lower output level above. The motors aren't stressed at all.
HD @ 110db: The B&C motor starts running out of breath. Distortion under 200hz increases, the highest point is at about 70hz near the crossover where it reaches 3%. Up top it still keeps it's cool, barely braking 1% in a few spots.
The SLS is not stressed at all. Barely brakes 1% down at 70hz, there isn't even a pattern of running out of linear excursion, this thing is a beast down low! Note that the fundamental is 5db higher than the B&C over the 60hz-200hz region so it's playing >2 times louder as well! Remarkable performance for a 7." I wouldn't actually believe it if I didn't test it myself. Over 200hz the SLS is a mess just as it was at lower output.
I think this is it, the purpose build 7" that we've all been hoping for in car audio. Beating the B&C down low is a real challenge for any 7" but the SLS does it with no iffs and buts. It's a superior midbass driver period. The motor seems to be bottomless and I would think the distortion we are seeing is mostly coming from my door getting stressed. The driver's side door has 7% distortion at the same output!!! Something gets really loose in there and it's very audible to my ears as well.
Bellow 100hz SLS is the winner
100hz - 200hz tie
200hz up B&C is the winner
The B&C is ideal as a 2 way driver, it's a perfect compromise for those that want to cross to a tweeter and I suspect it's the king on the market over the region 200hz-1,500hz. It will probably tie with most HiFi drivers that try to achieve the same thing over and under that region. Dedicated midranges will probably do better over 1,500hz and dedicated midbasses do better 100hz and bellow like we've seen.
Power compression:
None witnessed in any of the drivers. I'm surprised at how well the SLS takes its power. I must have been running at least 200watts out of my 320w available since the gains are maxed out and the volume knob went 54/62 for the last test, and that's with sine sweeps. Well, that and it hit 115db (70hz-180hz) in the last round!!
Based on THD the SLS can only be crossed up to 200hz. Anybody trying to cross higher is looking for a world of pain. 300hz is a decent crossover if you have a really steep slope.
I never believed in 7" bass drivers before but the SLS made a believer out of me. It's as shitty as they come over 300hz but man that translates into a gorgeous midbass driver. My rearview mirrors should now read "objects are closer than they appear and they are more steady." I can SEE the cone excursion through the little holes in the door! Without the panel the air gets compressed so much in the door it comes out of the clip holes! I haven't had the air in the door compress since I ran 10s. This is more of a match to 8" woofers than to the rest of the mortal 7"s. I really wished I could test the TB as it is the only one out there with enough balls to challenge it imo.
Ideal speaker for 2 way duty (can cross high with a tweeter): 63hz-4,000hz - B&C 6NDL44
First impression of the SLS based on build quality
These are the beefiest 6.5" I've laid eyes on. The surround finally looks like it can handle the long stroke required. Unlike the CSS SDX7 drivers I bought last time these are much fatter and much more rigid. The spider is even larger in my eyes than the CSS. I've seen raised spiders in my life but not like this, the whole basket is constructed to raise it substantially.
The basket has a lot more venting then I thought as well. It's bellow and above the spider.
The tinsel leads are flat and integrated into the spider. These seem to handle some power, again a lot nicer than the CSS.
The magnet is oversized and there is a bumped back plate for extra stroke. I can't really compare with the B&C 6ndl44 bellow or the CSS as those are neo. I'm going to be handling these by the magnet, any other way seems downright scary! The workmanship itself is spotless, glue joints, surround, connection post etc.
Playing on my desk everything shakes like mad at very little excursion. This little guy is to be feared!
First Impression B&C
Rugged pro audio speakers, no bling, just the ideal materials for the job. These guys have the most potent 7" speaker voice coil on the market, rated and tested 3rd party at 200w continuous. The small neo magnet is probably top notch quality as it is also the strongest I've seen in a 7". Also note the rather large pole vent. It has a mean grille to keep little babies from getting sucked in. The connection posts are top notch, large and beefy. The basket is aluminum to save even more weight and it has a circular surround protection ring so you can sit them on the front if you wish or to protect against the elements.
It does not have the sheer excursion of the SLS above but offers more power handling, sensitivity and therefore output for midrange use.
Testing Results
I tested both in my doors at the same volume level, 36/62. The SLS has a 4 ohm coil which means it's getting 320w whereas the B&C is 8 ohm and therefore gets 180w. This corresponds to a theoretical 3db or so. The crossovers are 20hz, 20khz so that you all get to see what they can do in your application as well.
FR
B&C red
SLS black
It seems like cabin gain does helps them both dig down to about 40hz. The output is almost identical between the two 20hz to 200hz. The SLS is however getting almost double the power so it is 3db less sensitive than the PA driver for midbass duty. Over 200hz the SLS gets its ass kicked severely. The B&C then is at least 3db more sensitive even down low, and works as a 2 way woofer. The SLS gets no points here, but all these drawbacks do come from its sheer clean excursion. The SlS is a pure midbass, it makes no other claims. Usable bands based on -3 db points:
B&C: 40hz-4,000hz
SLS: 40hz-800hz
Note the PA driver has a rising response on axis, which is why even over the 200hz-800hz interval it has more output in my door. The dip in the midrange seen in my pillar pods is here for the door mounted woofers too. Note the wide dip 300hz-1,2khz in both drivers.
Picture time!
Look at how much higher the spider is on the SLS, a full inch, maybe more! That makes for a lot more clean throw. Peerless probably designed this basket in-house. All the other 7s using off the shelf parts are going to have a hard time competing with this purpose built basket. You can always throw a big stupid magnet on a basket but in this case it's all beefed up to support it. I feel this is also the reason the XXLS sub has been the reference since the beginning, it had the suspension to match the beefy motor before anybody even acknowledged it mattered.
The fitment is gnarly in the S2000. The door panel has been trimmed to the max but I haven't trimmed the window stopper behind it. There is 1mm between the bumped back plate and the stopper! I love it when I use the space to the max! If the TB speaker is any deeper it wouldn't fit. I could shave 2mm off that stopper before it stops working properly, that's not enough. Looks like the SLS and the S2000 are a match made in heaven.
THD testing next!
THD
A crossover was implemented to test the driver in a realistic application. I used a high pass xover of 63hz and 24db slopes. No low pass was used.
B&C HD @ 100db
SLS
B&C HD @ 105db
SLS
B&C HD @ 110db
SLS
HD @ 100db: Both are excellent up to 200hz .8% or under. Over 200hz the SLS is merely average until 300hz and rather poor all the way after that. The B&C is superb with the exception of 1,500hz and 3,000hz. I suspect the lightweight cone is a little too soft and breaks up a bit up top, still great but other 7"s might do better over 1,500hz.
HD @ 105db: Same performance as at the lower output level above. The motors aren't stressed at all.
HD @ 110db: The B&C motor starts running out of breath. Distortion under 200hz increases, the highest point is at about 70hz near the crossover where it reaches 3%. Up top it still keeps it's cool, barely braking 1% in a few spots.
The SLS is not stressed at all. Barely brakes 1% down at 70hz, there isn't even a pattern of running out of linear excursion, this thing is a beast down low! Note that the fundamental is 5db higher than the B&C over the 60hz-200hz region so it's playing >2 times louder as well! Remarkable performance for a 7." I wouldn't actually believe it if I didn't test it myself. Over 200hz the SLS is a mess just as it was at lower output.
I think this is it, the purpose build 7" that we've all been hoping for in car audio. Beating the B&C down low is a real challenge for any 7" but the SLS does it with no iffs and buts. It's a superior midbass driver period. The motor seems to be bottomless and I would think the distortion we are seeing is mostly coming from my door getting stressed. The driver's side door has 7% distortion at the same output!!! Something gets really loose in there and it's very audible to my ears as well.
Bellow 100hz SLS is the winner
100hz - 200hz tie
200hz up B&C is the winner
The B&C is ideal as a 2 way driver, it's a perfect compromise for those that want to cross to a tweeter and I suspect it's the king on the market over the region 200hz-1,500hz. It will probably tie with most HiFi drivers that try to achieve the same thing over and under that region. Dedicated midranges will probably do better over 1,500hz and dedicated midbasses do better 100hz and bellow like we've seen.
Power compression:
None witnessed in any of the drivers. I'm surprised at how well the SLS takes its power. I must have been running at least 200watts out of my 320w available since the gains are maxed out and the volume knob went 54/62 for the last test, and that's with sine sweeps. Well, that and it hit 115db (70hz-180hz) in the last round!!
Based on THD the SLS can only be crossed up to 200hz. Anybody trying to cross higher is looking for a world of pain. 300hz is a decent crossover if you have a really steep slope.
I never believed in 7" bass drivers before but the SLS made a believer out of me. It's as shitty as they come over 300hz but man that translates into a gorgeous midbass driver. My rearview mirrors should now read "objects are closer than they appear and they are more steady." I can SEE the cone excursion through the little holes in the door! Without the panel the air gets compressed so much in the door it comes out of the clip holes! I haven't had the air in the door compress since I ran 10s. This is more of a match to 8" woofers than to the rest of the mortal 7"s. I really wished I could test the TB as it is the only one out there with enough balls to challenge it imo.
Trending Topics
07-25-2011, 05:29 PM
#8
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The cost of the Peerless is $45 a piece but don't think this is a cheaply made driver. It's worth it's weight in gold, well not literally haha. The B&C is more expensive, at $110-$135 a piece. The higher cost is commanded by the neodmium ring and the aluminum basket. All the other parts are just as high quality. These built houses also optimize their speakers using all the top notch technology available today like FEA and Klippel machines. They are raw drivers, you are basically buying them as a speaker builder so you don't pay all the markup from the bagging companies. I wish somebody made a driver like Peerless with a neo magnet and an aluminum sink but nobody does, it would be nice to save 5lb in an S.
Both sound amazing. I'm not big on verbiage, I like to think I got this down to a science so I don't have to. When you buy low distortion speakers like this they just don't sound like anything. Transparent is more like it. The B&Cs are a bit "punchy" since they don't have as much lower bass.
Both sound amazing. I'm not big on verbiage, I like to think I got this down to a science so I don't have to. When you buy low distortion speakers like this they just don't sound like anything. Transparent is more like it. The B&Cs are a bit "punchy" since they don't have as much lower bass.
07-26-2011, 10:54 AM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose at one point or another I should go over how to implement a raw driver like this into a system. There are two ways to properly specify what frequencies you want the speakers to play. If you buy a car audio set it generally comes with a passive crossover. That's the first type:
Passive Crossover
Not as good as an active crossover. The cross point is fixed so there is no flexibility. Another drawback is that the xover point changes based on the ohm rating of the speaker, so be careful. All the filtering is done after the amp this way so the crossover has to handle some power. In this case the speakers I showed can easily handle 200w continuous so the passives will saturate and strain. This is then the low performance easy option.
You can buy crossovers by themselves just like the speakers in this thread here or in other places, make sure the ohm ratings match or you know how to make it work, ask a PE rep if you have to:
My link
Active Crossovers
These are crossovers implemented before the amplification stage. You can use an amplifier crossover (usually the ones with the x10 multiplier) or a headunit crossover (usually marketed as a 3 way or 4 way active headunit). The king of all options on the market now is the Pioneer Stage 4 single din, the P99. That's the one I'm using and it's brilliant and well built. Performance, flexibility is best this route but generally more expensive than the passive network.
I will go over tweeters at some point too, but if you are interested in doing anything of this sort post it up and I'll give you my input.
Thanks for viewing.
Passive Crossover
Not as good as an active crossover. The cross point is fixed so there is no flexibility. Another drawback is that the xover point changes based on the ohm rating of the speaker, so be careful. All the filtering is done after the amp this way so the crossover has to handle some power. In this case the speakers I showed can easily handle 200w continuous so the passives will saturate and strain. This is then the low performance easy option.
You can buy crossovers by themselves just like the speakers in this thread here or in other places, make sure the ohm ratings match or you know how to make it work, ask a PE rep if you have to:
My link
Active Crossovers
These are crossovers implemented before the amplification stage. You can use an amplifier crossover (usually the ones with the x10 multiplier) or a headunit crossover (usually marketed as a 3 way or 4 way active headunit). The king of all options on the market now is the Pioneer Stage 4 single din, the P99. That's the one I'm using and it's brilliant and well built. Performance, flexibility is best this route but generally more expensive than the passive network.
I will go over tweeters at some point too, but if you are interested in doing anything of this sort post it up and I'll give you my input.
Thanks for viewing.
