CTR - The next one is a turbo
10-06-2011, 10:49 PM
#21
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I really cant see Mugen doing a turbo CTR, its not what Honda do nor is it economically viable for honda nowadays.
For me the only proper type R's were the old Civic Type R (EK9), the DC2 and possibly a DC5.
Newer type R's are poor IMO.
IMO the type R era has had its day, there are more economical, faster and more fuel efficient cars out there. Are they are much fun well that's debatable.
For me the only proper type R's were the old Civic Type R (EK9), the DC2 and possibly a DC5.
Newer type R's are poor IMO.
IMO the type R era has had its day, there are more economical, faster and more fuel efficient cars out there. Are they are much fun well that's debatable.
10-07-2011, 02:31 AM
#22
Originally Posted by nomadicS2k' timestamp='1317889855' post='21044705
Would you care to qualify 'not very good'?
Have you driven one?
Chris.
10-07-2011, 03:55 AM
#24
UK Moderator
Good point Chris, and no I haven't. 
However my quote wasn't not very good, it was not "that" good. Which referred to the cost for the performance on offer... £40k for a sub 300bhp hatch which still doesn't have independent rear suspension, and has been completely stripped out to make it a 2 seater, strikes me as a bit ridiculous. No matter how many carbon parts they put on it. I'm talking specifically about the UK Type Rs here, not the JDM efforts.
And the Mugen UK efforts I've seen on the show room floor have been purely styling exercises, albeit very expensive ones
The reviews of the Mugened CR-Z haven't really filled me with excitement either - neither particularly fast, nor economical, and have been very expensive too. In fact you could say that about any CR-Z IMO. Great looking sports car which isn't quick enough, or economical enough so misses the mark on both counts for me.
However my quote wasn't not very good, it was not "that" good. Which referred to the cost for the performance on offer... £40k for a sub 300bhp hatch which still doesn't have independent rear suspension, and has been completely stripped out to make it a 2 seater, strikes me as a bit ridiculous. No matter how many carbon parts they put on it. I'm talking specifically about the UK Type Rs here, not the JDM efforts.And the Mugen UK efforts I've seen on the show room floor have been purely styling exercises, albeit very expensive ones
The reviews of the Mugened CR-Z haven't really filled me with excitement either - neither particularly fast, nor economical, and have been very expensive too. In fact you could say that about any CR-Z IMO. Great looking sports car which isn't quick enough, or economical enough so misses the mark on both counts for me.
The cars were not completely stripped out either, yes removing the rear seats was an option (my car still has rear seats), but most if not all of the originally equipment and unnessary gadgets remain. Most of the weight was lost by replacing heavy OEM components with lightweight Mugen items such as the exhaust, suspension, wheels and brakes etc. As for the brakes--they are absolutely fantastic, totally unbelievable, although I expect the Yokohama tyres help quite a bit. And don't worry about not having IRS, some of the best hot hatches have had a rear torsion beam.
Mugen Euro have not sold any cars through Honda showrooms, so apart from one or two Mugen 20s that dealers bought for themselves, I not sure what 'Mugen UK efforts' you're referring to???
As far as the orange CR-Z that has been reviewed in some mags, I thought it was pretty quick TBH--I think a reliable 200HP from a weedy 1.5 litre hybrid in a car that weighs less than 1000kg, and is road tax exempt was pretty good going for a first attempt, don't you?
Chris.
10-07-2011, 03:59 AM
#25
UK Moderator
Originally Posted by Bassoctopus' timestamp='1317970134' post='21048132
Good point Chris, and no I haven't. However my quote wasn't not very good, it was not "that" good. Which referred to the cost for the performance on offer... £40k for a sub 300bhp hatch which still doesn't have independent rear suspension, and has been completely stripped out to make it a 2 seater, strikes me as a bit ridiculous. No matter how many carbon parts they put on it. I'm talking specifically about the UK Type Rs here, not the JDM efforts.
And the Mugen UK efforts I've seen on the show room floor have been purely styling exercises, albeit very expensive ones
The reviews of the Mugened CR-Z haven't really filled me with excitement either - neither particularly fast, nor economical, and have been very expensive too. In fact you could say that about any CR-Z IMO. Great looking sports car which isn't quick enough, or economical enough so misses the mark on both counts for me.
However my quote wasn't not very good, it was not "that" good. Which referred to the cost for the performance on offer... £40k for a sub 300bhp hatch which still doesn't have independent rear suspension, and has been completely stripped out to make it a 2 seater, strikes me as a bit ridiculous. No matter how many carbon parts they put on it. I'm talking specifically about the UK Type Rs here, not the JDM efforts.And the Mugen UK efforts I've seen on the show room floor have been purely styling exercises, albeit very expensive ones
The reviews of the Mugened CR-Z haven't really filled me with excitement either - neither particularly fast, nor economical, and have been very expensive too. In fact you could say that about any CR-Z IMO. Great looking sports car which isn't quick enough, or economical enough so misses the mark on both counts for me.
The cars were not completely stripped out either, yes removing the rear seats was an option (my car still has rear seats), but most if not all of the originally equipment and unnessary gadgets remain. Most of the weight was lost by replacing heavy OEM components with lightweight Mugen items such as the exhaust, suspension, wheels and brakes etc. As for the brakes--they are absolutely fantastic, totally unbelievable, although I expect the Yokohama tyres help quite a bit. And don't worry about not having IRS, some of the best hot hatches have had a rear torsion beam.
Mugen Euro have not sold any cars through Honda showrooms, so apart from one or two Mugen 20s that dealers bought for themselves, I not sure what 'Mugen UK efforts' you're referring to???
As far as the orange CR-Z that has been reviewed in some mags, I thought it was pretty quick TBH--I think a reliable 200HP from a weedy 1.5 litre hybrid in a car that weighs less than 1000kg, and is road tax exempt was pretty good going for a first attempt, don't you?
Chris.
10-07-2011, 04:22 AM
#26
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I don't disagree with any of your points Chris.
However, you are talking mega money for what is bog standard performance for a hot hatch these days.
I appreciate that these things are a bit special and for enthuisiasts such as yourself are a fantastic ownership proposition. But for 99% of buyers, this does not represent the affordable performance motoring that Honda was so good at 10-15 years ago. Dare I say it, the Mugen cars are an irrelevance for almost all buyers in this market and for Honda to use them as their performance arm seems ridiculous when they could do it so well and more cost effectively in house.
There were a number of cars available from dealers with Mugen badges, bumpers, exhausts, wheels that were basically a standard CTR for an extra £10k with no performance benefits. Lloyds had one in last year
However, you are talking mega money for what is bog standard performance for a hot hatch these days.
I appreciate that these things are a bit special and for enthuisiasts such as yourself are a fantastic ownership proposition. But for 99% of buyers, this does not represent the affordable performance motoring that Honda was so good at 10-15 years ago. Dare I say it, the Mugen cars are an irrelevance for almost all buyers in this market and for Honda to use them as their performance arm seems ridiculous when they could do it so well and more cost effectively in house.
There were a number of cars available from dealers with Mugen badges, bumpers, exhausts, wheels that were basically a standard CTR for an extra £10k with no performance benefits. Lloyds had one in last year
10-07-2011, 04:30 AM
#27
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I'll admit that £40k for a Civic might seem like a lot, but the amount of work that went into building each of the M20s makes it worth it IMO. You have to remember that these cars were not mass produced on a Honda factory production line. They were hand bult (assembled) by a small group of individuals. For example it takes one man over a week to build the engine alone, and that's before it is run in and tuned on one of the most sophisticated transient engine dynos available anywhere.
The cars were not completely stripped out either, yes removing the rear seats was an option (my car still has rear seats), but most if not all of the originally equipment and unnessary gadgets remain. Most of the weight was lost by replacing heavy OEM components with lightweight Mugen items such as the exhaust, suspension, wheels and brakes etc. As for the brakes--they are absolutely fantastic, totally unbelievable, although I expect the Yokohama tyres help quite a bit. And don't worry about not having IRS, some of the best hot hatches have had a rear torsion beam.
The cars were not completely stripped out either, yes removing the rear seats was an option (my car still has rear seats), but most if not all of the originally equipment and unnessary gadgets remain. Most of the weight was lost by replacing heavy OEM components with lightweight Mugen items such as the exhaust, suspension, wheels and brakes etc. As for the brakes--they are absolutely fantastic, totally unbelievable, although I expect the Yokohama tyres help quite a bit. And don't worry about not having IRS, some of the best hot hatches have had a rear torsion beam.
What are they though? (other than marketing exercises of course)
Are they track cars? Road cars? A bit of both?
10-07-2011, 04:42 AM
#28
UK Moderator
I don't disagree with any of your points Chris.
However, you are talking mega money for what is bog standard performance for a hot hatch these days.
I appreciate that these things are a bit special and for enthuisiasts such as yourself are a fantastic ownership proposition. But for 99% of buyers, this does not represent the affordable performance motoring that Honda was so good at 10-15 years ago. Dare I say it, the Mugen cars are an irrelevance for almost all buyers in this market and for Honda to use them as their performance arm seems ridiculous when they could do it so well and more cost effectively in house.
There were a number of cars available from dealers with Mugen badges, bumpers, exhausts, wheels that were basically a standard CTR for an extra £10k with no performance benefits. Lloyds had one in last year
However, you are talking mega money for what is bog standard performance for a hot hatch these days.
I appreciate that these things are a bit special and for enthuisiasts such as yourself are a fantastic ownership proposition. But for 99% of buyers, this does not represent the affordable performance motoring that Honda was so good at 10-15 years ago. Dare I say it, the Mugen cars are an irrelevance for almost all buyers in this market and for Honda to use them as their performance arm seems ridiculous when they could do it so well and more cost effectively in house.
There were a number of cars available from dealers with Mugen badges, bumpers, exhausts, wheels that were basically a standard CTR for an extra £10k with no performance benefits. Lloyds had one in last year
The car a Lloyds you are referring to is a Honda Civic Type R Mugen 200--they were run out specials put together by Honda UK and were nothing to do with Mugen Euro.
Chris.
10-07-2011, 07:10 AM
#29
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 FQ-300 4d
4.5 secs
157 mph
305 bhp
More Info
FQ-320
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 FQ-320 4d
4.4 secs
157 mph
326 bhp
More Info
MR FQ-360
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 MR FQ-360 4d
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
2.0 MR FQ-360 4d (Leather)
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
FQ-360
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 FQ-360 4d
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
2.0 FQ-360 4d (Leather)
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
FQ-340
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 FQ-340 4d
4.2 secs
157 mph
345 bhp
More Info
I'd take some convincing - you sure the Evo owner was really trying or maybe they just didn't see the Civic as a real threat.
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/torque-...tdi-north.html Looking at that, unless there's other engine mods .... doesn't seem that much for the -price tag?
4.5 secs
157 mph
305 bhp
More Info
FQ-320
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 FQ-320 4d
4.4 secs
157 mph
326 bhp
More Info
MR FQ-360
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 MR FQ-360 4d
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
2.0 MR FQ-360 4d (Leather)
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
FQ-360
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 FQ-360 4d
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
2.0 FQ-360 4d (Leather)
4.0 secs
157 mph
366 bhp
More Info
FQ-340
Model0-60 mphTop SpeedBHP2.0 FQ-340 4d
4.2 secs
157 mph
345 bhp
More Info
I'd take some convincing - you sure the Evo owner was really trying or maybe they just didn't see the Civic as a real threat.
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/torque-...tdi-north.html Looking at that, unless there's other engine mods .... doesn't seem that much for the -price tag?
10-07-2011, 01:43 PM
#30
UK Moderator
I've owned and driven plenty of Evos to know when one is trying.
It hardly pulled away from 100 to over 155......
I don't belive TDi's dyno curves, plus they were done on different days. However, the telling quote by Paul (TDi) in that thread was:
"With the M20 it's everything else you get in the package...... And I'll still have one if I could afford it.
"
I know M20 no.6 very well (the car featured in the TDi thread) it was the first M20 I drove and was owned by a friend of mine before he sold it through one of his Honda dealerships to a pair of to$$ers.
Funny how it doesn't say anything in that thread about it blowing up on the way home. First class work by TDi........
Mugen no longer acknowledge that no.6 exists.
Chris.
It hardly pulled away from 100 to over 155......
I don't belive TDi's dyno curves, plus they were done on different days. However, the telling quote by Paul (TDi) in that thread was:
"With the M20 it's everything else you get in the package...... And I'll still have one if I could afford it.
"I know M20 no.6 very well (the car featured in the TDi thread) it was the first M20 I drove and was owned by a friend of mine before he sold it through one of his Honda dealerships to a pair of to$$ers.
Funny how it doesn't say anything in that thread about it blowing up on the way home. First class work by TDi........
Mugen no longer acknowledge that no.6 exists.
Chris.