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STR Prep - Shock / Damper and Springs Discussion SCCA Autocross STR Class

Poll: STR Prep - Shock / Damper and Springs Discussion (119 member(s) have cast votes)

What brand of shocks do you use?

  1. Penske (16 votes [13.45%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.45%

  2. Moton (10 votes [8.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.40%

  3. AST (6 votes [5.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.04%

  4. Ohlins (11 votes [9.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.24%

  5. JRZ (8 votes [6.72%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.72%

  6. Sachs (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. Koni Yellow (Sport) (20 votes [16.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.81%

  8. Bilstein (5 votes [4.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.20%

  9. KW (11 votes [9.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.24%

  10. Tein (5 votes [4.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.20%

  11. Other (26 votes [21.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 21.85%

  12. Koni Mono Tube (1 votes [0.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.84%

What FRONT spring rates do you use?

  1. 1,000 lbs/in (6 votes [6.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.00%

  2. 950 lbs/in (1 votes [1.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.00%

  3. 900 lbs/in (13 votes [13.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.00%

  4. 850 lbs/in (8 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

  5. 800 lbs/in (9 votes [9.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.00%

  6. 750 lbs/in (10 votes [10.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  7. 700 lbs/in (17 votes [17.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.00%

  8. 650 lbs/in (5 votes [5.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.00%

  9. 600 lbs/in (3 votes [3.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.00%

  10. 550 lbs/in (14 votes [14.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.00%

  11. 500 lbs/in (4 votes [4.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  12. 450 lbs/in (1 votes [1.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.00%

  13. 400 lbs/in (1 votes [1.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.00%

  14. other (8 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

What REAR spring rates do you use?

  1. 1,000 lbs/in (2 votes [2.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.00%

  2. 950 lbs/in (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 900 lbs/in (8 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

  4. 850 lbs/in (3 votes [3.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.00%

  5. 800 lbs/in (11 votes [11.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.00%

  6. 750 lbs/in (6 votes [6.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.00%

  7. 700 lbs/in (9 votes [9.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.00%

  8. 650 lbs/in (8 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

  9. 600 lbs/in (12 votes [12.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.00%

  10. 550 lbs/in (14 votes [14.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.00%

  11. 500 lbs/in (9 votes [9.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.00%

  12. 450 lbs/in (5 votes [5.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.00%

  13. 400 lbs/in (5 votes [5.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.00%

  14. other (8 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#26 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:15 PM

I'm using 2.25" springs. Not sure what a helper spring guide is but basicly theres the lower spring (the adjustable one on the shock body), then the spring, another perch (black thing in picture), helper spring, tophat/upper perch. So right now for the shock to compress more then 40mm it has to slide the body inside of the helper spring perch and inside the helper spring if it compresses that much. I was thinking if I put the helper spring and that perch under the main spring then the body wouldn't have to pass through these when compressing more then 40mm. When the car is on the ground the helper spring and helper perch would just act as the spring perch right?


I don't want my new shock bodys scatched up :)
Posted Image Posted Image
08 Apex Blue CR- (STR PREPPED) Triple Adj JRZ Shocks, Dual Ball Bearing Bars, J's camber Joints, K&N Intake, Toda Header, Berk HFC, T1R 70em exhaust, Flashpro, Recaro SPG, Innovative 75a MM, Challange SS brake lines, GoPro Hero 3
00 BB S2000- Daily Driver

#27 User is offline   IntegraR0064 

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:18 PM

Right, exactly. I've never put them upside down like that but I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work, again making sure that the weight of the spring doesn't unseat everything making the helper spring useless.

And yes, the "black thing" is presumably a helper spring guide.

2.5" springs would give you more clearance if you want to be very sure, koni sells adapters.
-Jon Caserta
*2006 Laguna Blue S2000 - #8 or 183 STR

My STR S2000 blog with Tech info and STR guide

#28 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:34 PM

the helper springs are very weak, I don;t think they would be a issue.

#29 User is offline   oinojo 

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:09 AM

Shocks: Penske 8300
Shock Body Length: Front = TBD " --- Rear = TBD"
Valving: Custom
Pistons: Front Compression - Linear
Front Rebound - Linear
Rear Compression - Linear
Rear Rebound - Linear

Springs: Hyperco 6" 800f/600r

Car: 2006 S2000 AP2

Ride height: 12.75"f/12.5"r hub center to metal fender edge
Tires: 255/40R17 Hankook RS3
Wheels: Volk CE28 17x9

This post has been edited by oinojo: 19 December 2011 - 07:51 PM

2012 SCCA Solo STR National Champion
2013 SCCA ProSolo STR Champion
- Jonathan Lugod

#30 User is offline   Random1 

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 04:12 PM

The "take up springs" that I use on the bottom are Hypercoil 25 lb/in. and they are 4" long.

http://pitstopusa.co...-i-d-25-lb.html

Posted Image
Rob Rockefeller
#180 STR

Posted Image

Random1Racing.comMy S2000 Page

#31 User is offline   captain_pants 

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 07:36 PM

The word 'preload' should be banned from suspension discussions. Your spring perches set the ride height of the car with your given springs. You shouldn't give a darn if they're compressed 1" or flopping around at full droop, the goal is to set ride height and adjust corner weights. I care about my car's performance while at ride height, not when all four wheels are hanging while on jackstands. However, you may want to use helpers/take-up springs to keep the springs straight on the shocks when airborne and/or jacked up.

I like to use the helpers on the bottom, think of driving over very high frequency bumps: The wheel is bouncing up and down very quickly - if the helper is on the top it would have to accelerate the heavy spring down very quickly to keep it in contact with the lower perch. On the bottom, the main spring stays planted against the upper perch and the helper accelerates only a portion of it's own weight to stay in contact with the lower perch. The fact that different companies do it differently means it doesn't really matter much either way. ;)

The stock bushings also help to keep the main springs in contact if they were tightened at ride height. My rear suspension compressed over an inch after removing the shock/spring while on jackstands just due to the bushings pulling the hub up.

---------------------

My setup:
Penske 8300s, 750F/500R springs, stock top hats. Lengths were picked to exactly match the stock point of bumpstop contact (from when I was in BS), though I don't have that info handy right now. The current valving sucks so I'm shopping around for rebuild options. It seems as though everyone I speak with says some variation of "Trust me, I have the best valving." That makes me uncomfortable...
Corey

#32 User is offline   Random1 

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:20 PM

The word "pre-load" is valid for the discussion, but most of us do not use shocks that have a pre-load capability. Teins are the shocks that come to mind as well as many JDM shocks in general. With the models that do have a pre-load capability there are two adjustments. One for pre-loading the spring that is just like the perches we all know and love; the second is a shock length adjuster that allows the ride hide to be adjusted.

The photo below of Tein Flex shocks clearly shows the two adjustments.

Posted Image

#33 User is offline   murderedrsx 

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:18 PM

I haz those. Granted I really don't see the point in preloading the springs unless the car is "dumped", effectively moving toward the most rate. Anyway mine are set with 0 preload nut it is nice to adjust the ride height by just lengthening the body of the shock.
2000 NFR Chieko
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#34 User is offline   captain_pants 

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 08:56 AM

View PostRandom1, on 26 October 2011 - 09:20 PM, said:

The word "pre-load" is valid for the discussion, but most of us do not use shocks that have a pre-load capability. Teins are the shocks that come to mind as well as many JDM shocks in general. With the models that do have a pre-load capability there are two adjustments. One for pre-loading the spring that is just like the perches we all know and love; the second is a shock length adjuster that allows the ride hide to be adjusted.

Anything that changes the height between the lower control arm mounting point and the spring perch will adjust ride height. Changing the body length of the shock will change when the bumpstop engages and the droop height - as well as ride height if the spring perch isn't also adjusted accordingly. I'd set those parameters as I want (usually so the bumpstop prevents the tire from hitting the body, droop is highly car dependent) and then adjust ride height to suit.

Typically this style of arrangement sacrifices total travel so you've got to pick which one you want. The rear shocks in the S2000 have very little room to accommodate lots of droop and a reasonable bumpstop engagement, the big thread-on lower perch will likely sacrifice one or the other.

#35 User is offline   H22A_CD5 

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:37 PM

From my (basic) understanding, preload only makes a difference in springs with a progressive rate. This would make them have less of their soft travel and more toward their stiff travel. Springs with a linear rate would make no difference except raising the car at the perch creates more travel/less droop and vice versa. I like the idea of being able to adjust ride height by lengthening/shortening the shock body, this allows you to control how much droop you have (to combat inside rear spin) or travel you need (incase you're low enough to ride the bump stops) independly from the ride height. But it seems only the lower end of the suspension spectrum come set up like this. I wonder why that is? To me it makes more sense, for the above stated reasons, but I guess suspension companies dont feel the same way on that one. Perhaps the threading of the shock body forces them to run a thicker body or risk weakening it (I'm really just guessing). Maybe some of you gurus can chime in on that one.
04 Suzuka # 123 - Hondata KPro 229 whp (UMS Tuning Phoenix AZ) | 07 ASM RDX Tech Daily Driver

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#36 User is offline   mLeach 

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:10 AM

I just wanted to add to this thread that I have been running a set of revalved Koni Yellows on my car and have been very very happy with the results. The range of adjustment is huge, and it is very easy to change the balance of the car using rebound adjustments.

That said, the thing I think you leave on the table with this shock is your ability to get to maximum grip as quickly as possible, on the range of surface conditions that one might see in an autox. Having driven on a number of external resevoir, compression adjustable, large piston shocks, I can tell you that low speed compression can be really great when making adjustments mid corner, because you transfer the total weight across the axle at an earlier phase of the corner. The only way to do that with the koni is with a larger sway bar, or with more spring. And even then, the rate of change of weight transfer is still not quite the same.

Acknowledging all of that, I have no plans to upgrade to a high-end shock. I will likely go up in spring rate to try to find a little better chassis control, but think that these shocks are more than adequate for 99% of the autoxers out there - They could be shorter in the rear, but oh well.

bits on the car:
konis - race valve
850/700
gendron solid on 6/6
-3.2 camber/zero toe front
-2.6 camber/.25 toe rear
mx5 bar rear
chopped exhaust
255 rs3 on 9" wheel

This post has been edited by mLeach: 31 October 2011 - 09:13 AM


#37 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:58 PM

Can anyone tell me why I don't like much compression? It seems like everytime I turn up the compression the car feels nervous, and seems to let go faster. I run "some" compression in the front like 2/5 on low speed, and 4/14 on high speed but anytime I try to add any to the rear, the car gets really loose.

This post has been edited by josh7owens: 31 October 2011 - 06:00 PM


#38 User is offline   oinojo 

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 07:26 PM

View Postjosh7owens, on 31 October 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

Can anyone tell me why I don't like much compression? It seems like everytime I turn up the compression the car feels nervous, and seems to let go faster. I run "some" compression in the front like 2/5 on low speed, and 4/14 on high speed but anytime I try to add any to the rear, the car gets really loose.


too much compression force. what are your canister pressures at/set?

#39 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:40 PM

I think 150 maybe? Is it bad I'm not sure off the top of my head. HaHa

The fronts are at 2/5 low speed, 4/14 high speed.

this graph is at 2/5 low speed, 8/14 high speed
Posted Image

The rear is loose because of my toe setting to start with but I can't turn it up past 0/5 low speed and 4/14 high speed with out it feeling very nervious.


ps- rebound is at 12/14 front and 10/14 rear. 900f/700r springs. Rebound is set at 65% critical.

This post has been edited by josh7owens: 31 October 2011 - 09:41 PM


#40 User is offline   Random1 

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 11:19 AM

Added poll questions for spring rates. If you voted on the shocks prior then you will need to delete your vote and re-vote for all questions.

In this poll for some reason you can click on "view" next to any poll answer and see who voted. Does anyone know if there is an option for this? I don't see "view" available on other polls?

This post has been edited by Random1: 06 November 2011 - 11:26 AM


#41 User is offline   zo7vette 

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 01:22 PM

I received my Penske 8300's yesterday. I was planning on running the Eibach front bar, which uses stock endlinks. Will the stock endlinks clear the shocks? I saw a post from Saini when he installed one of the first set of Penske's, and said he had to get heim joints to clear the front forks.

edit, found out The answer is yes, stock endlinks work with an Eibach front sway bar and Penske 8300 shocks.

I will be running 800/700.

Thank you.

Jeff

This post has been edited by zo7vette: 06 November 2011 - 05:44 PM

Jeff Cawthorne

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#42 User is offline   TTMartin 

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 02:16 PM

Do you think anyone uses Showa shocks?

They only make OEM, CR OEM, and Spoon.

This post has been edited by TTMartin: 06 November 2011 - 02:27 PM

Tom

Posted Image

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#43 User is offline   AllMotor2.2 

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 02:41 PM

I've searched, and can't seem to find it, but what are the STOCK shock lengths from top of shock to bolt eye? (I found the rear, no info on the fronts)

#44 User is offline   TTMartin 

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 06:22 PM

Since many springs are sold in K (kg/mm)
here are the approximate conversions for the poll.
1000 lbs/in = 18 kg/mm
950 lbs/in = 17 kg/mm
900 lbs/in = 16 kg/mm
850 lbs/in = 15 kg/mm
800 lbs/in = 14 kg/mm
750 lbs/in = 13.5 kg/mm
700 lbs/in = 12.5 kg/mm
650 lbs/in = 11.5 kg/mm
600 lbs/in = 11 kg/mm
550 lbs/in = 10 kg/mm
500 lbs/in = 9 kg/mm
450 lbs/in = 8 kg/mm
400 lbs/in = 7 kg/mm

#45 User is offline   josh7owens 

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 06:22 PM

Fronts are never really a issue. If you really want to know ill messure mine. As for the rears my jrzs are 12" and I've bottomed them out. The rear bodys should be around 10.5" to not bottom out when lowered as low as we are.

#46 User is offline   nmrado 

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 01:19 AM

View PostAllMotor2.2, on 06 November 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

I've searched, and can't seem to find it, but what are the STOCK shock lengths from top of shock to bolt eye? (I found the rear, no info on the fronts)

Stock S2k front dampers:
17.25" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper body
22.0" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper shaft
pin mount, ~2.5" long

Stock S2k rear dampers:
12.25" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper body
17.25" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper shaft
pin mount, ~2.5" long

This post has been edited by nmrado: 07 November 2011 - 01:21 AM

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#53/153 '06 Elise SS

#47 User is offline   AllMotor2.2 

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 11:30 AM

View Postnmrado, on 07 November 2011 - 01:19 AM, said:

View PostAllMotor2.2, on 06 November 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

I've searched, and can't seem to find it, but what are the STOCK shock lengths from top of shock to bolt eye? (I found the rear, no info on the fronts)

Stock S2k front dampers:
17.25" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper body
22.0" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper shaft
pin mount, ~2.5" long

Stock S2k rear dampers:
12.25" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper body
17.25" from bottom clevis through holes to top of damper shaft
pin mount, ~2.5" long


Awesome! Thanks, this saves me the time of taking my car apart to measure. :thumbup:

#48 User is offline   mcsinc 

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:22 AM

RE: Penskes

1) Where to buy?
2) Has anyone had them shortened? If so, how much, and how did they feel after?

I had some Bilsteins shortened on my Miata because of a lack of travel, and the consequent "stepping out" of the rear when hard into a corner and going over bumps. Helped tremendously (along with shorter bumpstops)

This post has been edited by mcsinc: 12 November 2011 - 02:24 AM


#49 User is offline   ebdavis 

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 06:39 AM

View Postmcsinc, on 12 November 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

RE: Penskes

1) Where to buy?
2) Has anyone had them shortened? If so, how much, and how did they feel after?

I had some Bilsteins shortened on my Miata because of a lack of travel, and the consequent "stepping out" of the rear when hard into a corner and going over bumps. Helped tremendously (along with shorter bumpstops)



http://ankenyracinge...trutsShocks.htm
Eric Davis
#78 STR, 02 S2000

#50 User is offline   zo7vette 

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:47 PM

Shocks: Penske 8300 Double Adjustable
Shock Body Length (lower bolt center to top of body/shaft bearing): Front = TBD " --- Rear = 10.25"
Valving: PSI spec

Springs: Eibach 6" 800/700 Have 8" fronts and 7" rears coming. 6" with stock top hats is way to short, learned this the hard way.

Car: 2008 S2000 White with Red leather

Ride height: I measure from bottom of rim to fender edge. 21 7/8" Front 22 1/8" Rear. I don't know how you guys stay consistant from the hub center.
Tires: 255 square Dunlop Star Specs for the cold months, then will switch to RS3's when it warms up.
Wheels: TSW Nurburgring 17x9 63mm
Pressures: 36F 26R
Alignment: -2.5 Front, 0 toe, -2.5 Rear, 1/4" total toe in.

Front Sway bar: Eibach, set on its stiff setting
Rear Sway bar: Stock '08

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