Double Wishbone Suspension
11-18-2011, 12:05 PM
#11
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Silver, I appreciate that you aren't threatening to wrestle me while covered with oil or suggesting that we compare anatomy. It's also good that you aren't trying to tempt us with a seductive avatar. It's good that we will keep this related to the topic.
What you said a long time ago wasn't that Honda took what they learned on the track and applied it to the NSX. What you actually said was "Did Vtec,Pgm-FI,and double wishbone design not come from Honda's F1 program in the 80's?" Basically, you asked me to deny that Honda's F1 program resulted in those inventions.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/309...3#entry6028093
I'm really not sure how to confuse that statement. Anyway, I have no doubt that people who touched Honda's F1 program in the 80s also touched the NSX program. Do keep in mind that the 1980s F1 cars with Honda's name were not "Hondas". They were English cars powered by Honda. Still, Honda's engines were to be commended. As for the history of double wishbone suspension, well it appears that Packard was the first in 1935. Honda wasn't a big player in the US market back then. To be fair, that older design used a separate kingpin and A-arm pivots unlike the ball joints we have today. I'm not sure who was the first to use ball joints rather than a separate kingpin.
Your article doesn't actually say Honda invented wishbone suspension, a fact that is easy to disprove given that the design existed before Honda made cars. It does say that Honda used that design for the NSX.
The language of the quote makes it unclear if the design was inspired by or shared any thing with the F1 cars of the time.
"To accomplish this the research staff borrowed a page from FORMULA ONE TECHNOLOGY and developed an upper and lower control arm or double wishbone design for both front and rear suspensions. "
"borrowed a page" doesn't actually mean the design was derived from F1 designs. It doesn't mean it wasn't but it's actually an ambiguous phrase that ultimately can only be taken to mean the two designs share something in common. Looking at pictures of the geometry and the construction shows little similarity to F1 cars of the day. Certainly no more similar to an F1 car than a Swift Formula Ford.
Honda and other makes had used double wishbone suspension in front for decades prior to the NSX and even in the rear the technology wasn't new. Even junior level race cars had been using A-arms in the back in the 70s. The Miata, released the same year as the NSX, had a double wishbone in back. I'm not sure which other production cars had a double wishbone in back prior to 1990 but I doubt Honda was the first (tied with Mazda). The 1989 300ZX has double wishbone. My quick search seems to indicate that most RWD/AWD cars prior to that had semi-trailing link rear ends. Notable exceptions would be Jag, the C2-C4 Corvettes, and Lotus which all had multi-link rear suspensions. Geometrically speaking, double A-arm is a subset of multi-link. Since the 1990s most cars have moved away from the semi-trailing arm designs favored by the Germans and Japanese in the 70s and 80 and towards full multi-link designs as pioneered by the British and GM. Ironically the current Corvette actually uses true A-arms at all 4 corners, not a rear multilink (again ignoring that A-arms are geometrically a subset of multilink).
So in summary, thank you for keeping this about cars and not bodies. You did say Honda invented, not Honda used. Cars have been using A-arms up front since prior to WW2. The NSX was a very impressive car and one of the earlier production cars to use A-arm rear suspension. It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.
What you said a long time ago wasn't that Honda took what they learned on the track and applied it to the NSX. What you actually said was "Did Vtec,Pgm-FI,and double wishbone design not come from Honda's F1 program in the 80's?" Basically, you asked me to deny that Honda's F1 program resulted in those inventions.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/309...3#entry6028093
I'm really not sure how to confuse that statement. Anyway, I have no doubt that people who touched Honda's F1 program in the 80s also touched the NSX program. Do keep in mind that the 1980s F1 cars with Honda's name were not "Hondas". They were English cars powered by Honda. Still, Honda's engines were to be commended. As for the history of double wishbone suspension, well it appears that Packard was the first in 1935. Honda wasn't a big player in the US market back then. To be fair, that older design used a separate kingpin and A-arm pivots unlike the ball joints we have today. I'm not sure who was the first to use ball joints rather than a separate kingpin.
Your article doesn't actually say Honda invented wishbone suspension, a fact that is easy to disprove given that the design existed before Honda made cars. It does say that Honda used that design for the NSX.
The language of the quote makes it unclear if the design was inspired by or shared any thing with the F1 cars of the time.
"To accomplish this the research staff borrowed a page from FORMULA ONE TECHNOLOGY and developed an upper and lower control arm or double wishbone design for both front and rear suspensions. "
"borrowed a page" doesn't actually mean the design was derived from F1 designs. It doesn't mean it wasn't but it's actually an ambiguous phrase that ultimately can only be taken to mean the two designs share something in common. Looking at pictures of the geometry and the construction shows little similarity to F1 cars of the day. Certainly no more similar to an F1 car than a Swift Formula Ford.
Honda and other makes had used double wishbone suspension in front for decades prior to the NSX and even in the rear the technology wasn't new. Even junior level race cars had been using A-arms in the back in the 70s. The Miata, released the same year as the NSX, had a double wishbone in back. I'm not sure which other production cars had a double wishbone in back prior to 1990 but I doubt Honda was the first (tied with Mazda). The 1989 300ZX has double wishbone. My quick search seems to indicate that most RWD/AWD cars prior to that had semi-trailing link rear ends. Notable exceptions would be Jag, the C2-C4 Corvettes, and Lotus which all had multi-link rear suspensions. Geometrically speaking, double A-arm is a subset of multi-link. Since the 1990s most cars have moved away from the semi-trailing arm designs favored by the Germans and Japanese in the 70s and 80 and towards full multi-link designs as pioneered by the British and GM. Ironically the current Corvette actually uses true A-arms at all 4 corners, not a rear multilink (again ignoring that A-arms are geometrically a subset of multilink).
So in summary, thank you for keeping this about cars and not bodies. You did say Honda invented, not Honda used. Cars have been using A-arms up front since prior to WW2. The NSX was a very impressive car and one of the earlier production cars to use A-arm rear suspension. It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.
11-18-2011, 12:15 PM
#12
And just to everyone knows what this thread is about, Rockville always busts Silverstreak HX's balls because Silverstreak once went off on a fanboy rant about how GM sucks which ultimately culminated in Silverstreak HX claiming that Honda invented wishbone suspension. Rockville has apparently always given him shit about it and Silverstreak, being the numb nuts embarrassment to the human race that he is, thought this thread would vindicate him. The problem is that he's a goddamn moron and doesn't realize how little he knows.
Look, everyone can be wrong from time to time. Rockville schooled me in a thread the other day where I made a comment about the springing medium used on the C6 Vette whereby I was completely wrong. Rockville proved me wrong and I acquiesced like a responsible adult should. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING WRONG. There is, however, something very wrong about an adult who can't recognize when he's been bested. There are few things more pathetic than someone who feels the need to make a thread like this one in order to prove someone wrong only to reveal just how ignorant they are on the subject.
Congratulations, SIlverstreak. You've sufficiently embarrassed yourself. You should have just let it go.
Without further ado, here are the comments that got Silverstreak into this mess...
to which someone responded:
to which Silverstreak HX said:
I have never actually read this before (I just did a quick search and found it) so it's really goddamn funny since I JUST USED VTEC AS AN EXAMPLE. Hahahaha. The dumb asshole also thinks that VTEC came from Honda's F1 program.
The best part is that he says it so matter-of-fact and definitively, like he's surprised that everyone didn't already know this. Hahahahaha.
In another thread, he posted the following:
In yet another thread:
It looks like the bottom of his above quote didn't get indexed or he never finished his sentence.
The really awesome part about this is that he not only got it wrong but that he has continuously stated these types of comments over and over again. Priceless.
Look, everyone can be wrong from time to time. Rockville schooled me in a thread the other day where I made a comment about the springing medium used on the C6 Vette whereby I was completely wrong. Rockville proved me wrong and I acquiesced like a responsible adult should. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING WRONG. There is, however, something very wrong about an adult who can't recognize when he's been bested. There are few things more pathetic than someone who feels the need to make a thread like this one in order to prove someone wrong only to reveal just how ignorant they are on the subject.
Congratulations, SIlverstreak. You've sufficiently embarrassed yourself. You should have just let it go.
Without further ado, here are the comments that got Silverstreak into this mess...
Not all American engines suck just GM . Ask anyone that has had a GM engine for a couple of years and you will come to understand the truth.
No company is perfect not even Honda (Passport as a prime example)
However to me GM Engineering is "How cheap can we make it " compared to a company that has a Formula 1 engine that goes to 18,000 or more rpm.
No company is perfect not even Honda (Passport as a prime example)
However to me GM Engineering is "How cheap can we make it " compared to a company that has a Formula 1 engine that goes to 18,000 or more rpm.
When is the last time Honda put an F1 engine in a passenger vehicle - I don't really get that comparison...
GM has good engines. LS1, LS6 V8's for example. The 3.8L V6 - not an exciting engine but bulletproof. The Ecotec is a strong motor if you are into modding, and if you've driven a supercharged one, it pulls a lot stronger than 205 HP suggests in the ION Redline (great engine looking for a better car).
If you want to talk racing, GM has done some 1000+ HP versions and broke the Pro FWD record at the Salt Flats with a done up ION Redline (212 MPH), then broke it again with a Cobalt SS (243 MPH!).
http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news...02/217390.html
Just because Honda didn't compete doesn't mean Honda's engine suck.
GM has good engines. LS1, LS6 V8's for example. The 3.8L V6 - not an exciting engine but bulletproof. The Ecotec is a strong motor if you are into modding, and if you've driven a supercharged one, it pulls a lot stronger than 205 HP suggests in the ION Redline (great engine looking for a better car).
If you want to talk racing, GM has done some 1000+ HP versions and broke the Pro FWD record at the Salt Flats with a done up ION Redline (212 MPH), then broke it again with a Cobalt SS (243 MPH!).
http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news...02/217390.html
Just because Honda didn't compete doesn't mean Honda's engine suck.
to which Silverstreak HX said:
Well where did you think Honda VTEC came from not to mention the double wishbone suspension.
And as far as GM and drag racing go yeah that seems to be a good match . At least you know a GM engine can go the 1/4 mile before it needs rebuilding!
You GM fans need to get out more. First read some Consumer Reports on long term reliability then ask a few owners who have had them.
My friends dad works in a NAPA auto parts machine shop and he says GM has made his whole career rebuilding all that junk.
And as far as GM and drag racing go yeah that seems to be a good match . At least you know a GM engine can go the 1/4 mile before it needs rebuilding!
You GM fans need to get out more. First read some Consumer Reports on long term reliability then ask a few owners who have had them.
My friends dad works in a NAPA auto parts machine shop and he says GM has made his whole career rebuilding all that junk.
The best part is that he says it so matter-of-fact and definitively, like he's surprised that everyone didn't already know this. Hahahahaha.
In another thread, he posted the following:
I sure wish someone could find this article ! What I read was Honda was talking about how some of their stuff trickled down from F1 to their road cars . 3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, Double wishbone suspension!
One thing about it whether those wheel weights are a safety issue or not it sure shows how GM brings on another half-assed solution to a problem . Is it any wonder their customers are leaving by the droves?
I am glad u have finally shut up and realized that I and CR are Right about GM and it is especially a bad choice after getting Spoiled by Honda reliability.
One thing about it whether those wheel weights are a safety issue or not it sure shows how GM brings on another half-assed solution to a problem . Is it any wonder their customers are leaving by the droves?
I am glad u have finally shut up and realized that I and CR are Right about GM and it is especially a bad choice after getting Spoiled by Honda reliability.
In yet another thread:
However Hondas technology of VTEC,PGM-FI,and double wishbone suspension all trickled down from F1 so Ferrari is not the only one to benefit from F1 and Hondas primary market is not 500 hp GT cars either.
Next is Gm engineering even involved in Nascar? Hell I thought they were all just private teams not factory teams so how could they be learning anything?
Every old technology from the phonograph,45 record,8 track tape, and cassette tape have found their way to the grave because of improved technology . Except Nascar the one that got away. The fans celebrate it like it is something special. If I live a thousand years I will never figure out its appeal for in my book it has no merit . I have to give the France family credit though they are delivering very low content entertainment and charging them top dollar for it. Pure marketing genius. One of the great con jobs in history - Nothing for something!
I will let the man himself step in: In 1964, when Honda first entered formula one, Mr Honda said
Next is Gm engineering even involved in Nascar? Hell I thought they were all just private teams not factory teams so how could they be learning anything?
Every old technology from the phonograph,45 record,8 track tape, and cassette tape have found their way to the grave because of improved technology . Except Nascar the one that got away. The fans celebrate it like it is something special. If I live a thousand years I will never figure out its appeal for in my book it has no merit . I have to give the France family credit though they are delivering very low content entertainment and charging them top dollar for it. Pure marketing genius. One of the great con jobs in history - Nothing for something!
I will let the man himself step in: In 1964, when Honda first entered formula one, Mr Honda said
The really awesome part about this is that he not only got it wrong but that he has continuously stated these types of comments over and over again. Priceless.
11-18-2011, 12:17 PM
#13
11-18-2011, 12:22 PM
#15
Hahaha. Seriously, Jonboy.
The worst part is that he's still going to try and argue his way through this. Just be a man, Silverstreak. This is your one chance to just admit that you were wrong and laugh it off. Act like an adult and admit that you were wrong and I am positive that we are all mature enough here that we can let it go. YOU are the sole reason that this keeps getting dragged out. Stop embarrassing yourself.
The worst part is that he's still going to try and argue his way through this. Just be a man, Silverstreak. This is your one chance to just admit that you were wrong and laugh it off. Act like an adult and admit that you were wrong and I am positive that we are all mature enough here that we can let it go. YOU are the sole reason that this keeps getting dragged out. Stop embarrassing yourself.
11-18-2011, 12:33 PM
#16
... I'm not sure which other production cars had a double wishbone in back prior to 1990 but I doubt Honda was the first (tied with Mazda). The 1989 300ZX has double wishbone. My quick search seems to indicate that most RWD/AWD cars prior to that had semi-trailing link rear ends. ...
... It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.
... It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.
J
11-18-2011, 12:40 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by rockville' timestamp='1321650339' post='21168664
... I'm not sure which other production cars had a double wishbone in back prior to 1990 but I doubt Honda was the first (tied with Mazda). The 1989 300ZX has double wishbone. My quick search seems to indicate that most RWD/AWD cars prior to that had semi-trailing link rear ends. ...
... It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.
... It was not the first as it was beaten out by the 300ZX and depending on release date, Mazda as well.
J
On a separate note, someone has it out for Mr EG and even you. Your simple post stating that your Supra had wishbones got a thumbs down! Man, talk about some unhappy members around here LOL!
11-18-2011, 01:16 PM
#18
Gee, I wonder who did that. 
11-18-2011, 01:17 PM
#19
It would be better if instead of quoting him as saying "3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, Double wishbone suspension!" you quoted him as saying "3 things- 1 PGM FI , VTEC, and third...er, um...nope, can't remember the third...oops."