[ChilledBud]

See last post as dealership ended up resolving the matter out of small claims court.

[AquilaEagle]

The issue with a verbal contract is proof.

Good luck!

[ChilledBud]

AquilaEagle, on 20 February 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

The issue with a verbal contract is proof.

Good luck!

I know it's as good as a written contract by law, and the fact myself and the SWMBO where present is good, the fact the salesman left the company and Honda Chester are refusing his contact details are a pain, the issue is do I pay the £80 odd and take them to small claims or bow down to the £150 and lesson learnt?

[Simon W]

Did you agree with the salesman that the warranty meant replacement of the roof if it developed premature wear, or repair? It does not sound from your original post as though this was defined.

[Simon W]

I understand that you included premature wear.
But my question was what did you agree with them would be done? Replacement or repair? Or was that not stipulated? Again, it seems to me maybe you didn't cover that aspect of the warranty in your agreement.

[ChilledBud]

Simon W, on 20 February 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I understand that you included premature wear.
But my question was what did you agree with them would be done? Replacement or repair? Or was that not stipulated? Again, it seems to me maybe you didn't cover that aspect of the warranty in your agreement.

I'd be happy for them to repair the problem as I've stated to them many times, they initially said they would get a guy they used to use for their Merc dealership to come in and sort it ( stitching the tear on both sides ), instead they tried a bit of glue on it and called it a day. The only talk of a new roof was when I stated to them how much it cost's new to sort one out, and the fact of the matter is that it's a 'faulty' frame that causes the premature wear, the exact same problem that Honda USA have highlighted and many forum users. The way I see it is, I have 2 years of warranty on the thing, they can fix it anyway they want as long as it works and stayed that way for the duration of the warranty, or else I'll be back to have it fixed again.

[Simon W]

OK thanks I see. You didn't agree that they would replace the hood if a fault developed, just that they would mend it. You were then not satisfied with their repair effort. I don't suppose, reading what you have written, that you want to give them another chance to repair it? If you do, or even if you decide to get it mended elsewhere, then you still need to prevent the problem arising again, which you can quite easily do for very little money. You can check out how to avoid further hood wear from frame-rubbing, on various threads on here. Basically it's a case of wrapping the offending area of frame.
I think their offer to give you £150 towards the cost of independent repair seems reasonable in the circumstances. I wouldn't run the risk of having to pay their costs if you take them to court and don't do better than that.
HTH.

[ChilledBud]

I though about saying stuff it and take the £150, but then I though they've not really tried to fix the problem, they had a quick crappy go and then changed tactics to "Oh it's not covered under sales act or warranty so it's your problem" as soon as they've cottoned on it's not a very quick fix.

Their attitude, and the fact I don't want to be out of pocket for something I firmly believe the car shouldn't have been sold with, it might be going on 7 years old but I paid over the odds for a Honda dealership car over private sale for piece of mind, and the fact the rest of the roof bar the two wear points is in great condition means it's not 'wear and tear' but premature wear.

[Simon W]

Hmm, I hope that HUK's involvement leads to a satisfactory resolution. I don't think, from what you've said, that anyone, even the dealer, is saying you shouldn't get a repair done under the 24m warranty. They're just saying they can't get a repairer to offer a warranty. Well that's no problem: your warranty is with the dealer. If the new repair fails again, then they get it fixed again.
I had not realised it is a 7 year old car until your last posts. I really don't think you'll end up with a new hood for no outlay. But good luck with your negotiations.

[Toully]

I had a similar (ish) problem when I got mine. There was a rip on the drivers carpet and a few other bits and bobs. The sales rep assured me that all will be dealt with and they all were except the carpet. When I queried it he just said "we are not going to replace the carpet!" and that was it. I decided a verbal contract wasn't worth the paper its written on and left it there.

Bought a 2nd hnd one in the end and replaced it myself. I'd take their £150 and put it towards a new hood. You could even suggest they increase the offer to £200 and call it quits?

[Simon W]

From the e-mail you quoted above, the dealer isn't refusing to fix the hood, but is saying they can't find a repairer who will provide a guarantee. Tell them you'll happily accept a fresh repair carried out by a reputable trim specialist, and because that person isn't the person you had the contact with you're not worried that the trim shop won't guarantee the work. Your contract (verbal) is with the dealer.
I must say you do sound rather keen to go to court!

[Toully]

I don't disagree with you in anyway but I just don't fancy your chances. In my case, I certainly felt the salesman had led me on only to change his tune at the last minute and I am sure if I was in your shoes with a torn hood I would be more than a little pee'd off. I sincerely hope you get your way.

[Yorki3]

From what ive read it would appear that you may struggle to get a full resolution here if the dealership is adamant to dig its heels in.

We can all here agree that you have a verbal contract which is binding – however that statement is simply washed away without proof of the same. Your wife’s witness statement would be unlikely to be accepted as she is an interested party. So it appears to come down to your word against theirs.

Furthermore under contract law both parties are ALWAYS under a duty to mitigate their loss. Add to that, the fact the legal rhetoric in the Sales of Goods Act requires both parties attempt to be reasonable with each other in order to stop litigation from occurring. The Honda dealer will state this:

1) We have no knowledge/proof of the exact wording of the guarantee/warranty offered by our representative (no longer employed by us).
2) It is implied that no such cover would ever be handed out. Our training and written warranties never offer a warranty outside that confines of the written warranty – which does not cover this instance of damage.
3) We have attempted to be reasonable in the circumstances in order to satisfy our customer by offering a free repair attempt – however due to the nature of the work and damage no further protection could be afforded…but we are not bound to offer such cover (as outlined in point 1)
4) We have mitigated and been reasonable by offering £150 as a goodwill gesture
5) Therefore in light of our standard work and practice (which implied no such warranty exists), the lack of formal evidence of a legal contract, the fact we have mitigated and been reasonable as customary under contract law – means that we feel there is no case to answer here.

Your only chance is to attempt to form a written contract through your email communication, i.e. asking ‘do you agree there was a verbal contract’ and being fortunate to receive the response ‘yes, that point is not disputed’. You could attempt to argue that there conduct implies they have knowledge of a verbal contract for the warranty, i.e. have they acted out of the ordinary in this case by offering repairs and payments (I think that will struggle because they will say its all goodwill). Try and locate the representative you used – he may no longer work for Honda and be happy to agree to some points regarding the negotiation. Even if the negotiator wasn’t supposed to offer you such a wide warranty it will not matter because as an agent his actions still bind the company should you rely on them ‘bone fide’ (which you do by purchasing the car) and at the least you can claim it’s a misrepresentation (“a statement of fact that induces a part into a contract that causes loss).

Finally under Consumer Protection Act – the burden of proof is on the commercial seller to prove that the defect (your roof) was not foreseeable or unreasonable in the circumstances WITHIN the first 6 months (after that it shifts onto you). Being a 7 year old car (don’t know how many owners, or the condition it was sold in) they may be able to argue that such damage is not unheard of for a 7 year old car.

If there is any more detail regarding there conduct, then post it and will see if there’s anyway forward.

Good Luck!

[ChilledBud]

Simon W, on 21 February 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

From the e-mail you quoted above, the dealer isn't refusing to fix the hood, but is saying they can't find a repairer who will provide a guarantee. Tell them you'll happily accept a fresh repair carried out by a reputable trim specialist, and because that person isn't the person you had the contact with you're not worried that the trim shop won't guarantee the work. Your contract (verbal) is with the dealer.
I must say you do sound rather keen to go to court!

I've told them a couple of time it's not my problem who fixes the roof and the guarantee the dealership get from them, there my go to, and should a problem re-occur then I'll be back to them, they can do what they deem fit in regards to the repair person. I've stated I'm happy for a workable repair to be tried, and should that fail they have a third and final attempt to get it right before I have it fixed elsewhere and send them the bill, CAB agreed this is what they expect.

I'm not keen on going to court at all, it's a pain in the rear as I had to do it when a landlord didn't have my deposit in the government scheme and refused to give it back for no reason. It was a pain and a time consuming way to sort it. But I won't have a dealer agree a extra part to a warranty and then turn round and not honour it, people say they will do anything to sell a car, and this time they've bitten off more than they can chew. They need to be made accountable for their error and not hope I'll go away like most people would.

Sad thing is we never had an issue with all the new Honda's that family and friends have purchased and serviced there, but they've now gone and lost at least 6 cars worth of future purchase and servicing. They knew of at least two of these cars as they came up when they entered my address and found they already had use of the address.

[GREGSTERWIZ]

Find your own repairer to sort the roof and bill Chester Honda

Realistically, depending on the age of the car, you can't expect a used car to be as good as new. How old is the car, mileage, etc ?

Trim items are usually specifically excluded from any warranty so unless you stipulated you wanted the roof repairing prior to collecting the car it won't be covered.

Don't rely on a judge taking your word for what was/ wasn't agreed.

Best of luck !

[lower]

Verbal contracts are worth the paper they're written on.

Accept the £150 goodwill and pay the extra for the repair. Otherwise you're going to go through a load of grief and hassle to achieve an outcome that is not cut and dried.

You may be adamant that you are morally right and they're trying to pull a fast one, but its just not worth the hassle for an extra £150. So suck up all the emotion and get on with your life.

[unclefester]

Have a look at Veehex thread - he got a roof from a place in Wales fitted for £250

[lower]

ChilledBud, on 21 February 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Lower, I'm waiting to see the outcome of Honda UK involvement in the matter and a reply from Chester Honda. I'd have happily put it to bed if it wasn't for the fact they where so rude and arrogant about the matter. Worse case is a £280 trip to Swasnsea that I've planned ahead for.

I wouldn't hold your breath on getting anything positive from Honda UK. They will just refer it back to the dealer.

A good few years ago i bought a 3 year old S2000 from a Honda dealer as an approved used Honda. It turned out to be a parallel import and the dealer had chosen to conceal the fact before sale by preventing me from seeing the service book and being evasive when i asked the question. Honda UK weren't interested. I negotiated a some discount and a guaranteed buyback (in writing) from the dealer. When i chose to invoke that buyback and the dealer refused to honour the written contract, Honda UK weren't interested.

My advice to you is to put your obvious emotion to one side, do the best deal you can with the dealer, cut your losses and get on with your life.

[GREGSTERWIZ]

ChilledBud, on 21 February 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I've not made a issue about anything I would put down to the car being 7 yo. I've sorted the swirled paint work myself and had to rectify the paint 'prep' they charged £100 for. The interior was filthy, but again I sorted that out, and the seats have seen better days, but I see that again as reasonable for a 7 year old car. A hole in the roof I don't, it's a security risk at best, and I bet Honda would have something to wriggle out of a warranty claimy if the car had water damage effecting the electrics and so on.

I can understand you're a bit pissed with the dealer but try not to let your principles get in the way

In a perfect world they'd change the roof; but they won't because it will cost them too much

It's a 7 year old car and unfortunately the roof on some cars does wear

If you're happy with the car get it sorted yourself and try to get some more £££ from the dealer

PS was my "old" 09 S2000 in the showroom when you bought your car ? Mint car with a rattly engine !

I had some dealings with Holdcroft (Chester) Honda a while back. Found them distinctly average. Salesman was "Steve" if I recall correctly.

[ChilledBud]

GREGSTERWIZ, on 21 February 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

ChilledBud, on 21 February 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I've not made a issue about anything I would put down to the car being 7 yo. I've sorted the swirled paint work myself and had to rectify the paint 'prep' they charged £100 for. The interior was filthy, but again I sorted that out, and the seats have seen better days, but I see that again as reasonable for a 7 year old car. A hole in the roof I don't, it's a security risk at best, and I bet Honda would have something to wriggle out of a warranty claimy if the car had water damage effecting the electrics and so on.

I can understand you're a bit pissed with the dealer but try not to let your principles get in the way

In a perfect world they'd change the roof; but they won't because it will cost them too much

It's a 7 year old car and unfortunately the roof on some cars does wear

If you're happy with the car get it sorted yourself and try to get some more £££ from the dealer

PS was my "old" 09 S2000 in the showroom when you bought your car ? Mint car with a rattly engine !

I had some dealings with Holdcroft (Chester) Honda a while back. Found them distinctly average. Salesman was "Steve" if I recall correctly.

There where none in Chester Honda, but there was a Silver 09 in Oswestry Honda when I went and drove a Red GT 04.

Being a little bored I've had a quick read of the approved used car guarantee, and there's a wear and tear cover that was optional, and that to me is what they pretty much offered and agreed too. That clearly would cover the tear on the roof as you could call it a mechanical/material defect as well.

[GREGSTERWIZ]

ChilledBud, on 21 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Being a little bored I've had a quick read of the approved used car guarantee, and there's a wear and tear cover that was optional, and that to me is what they pretty much offered and agreed too. That clearly would cover the tear on the roof as you could call it a mechanical/material defect as well.

No mate, the roof will be classed as trim. It's not mechanical or electrical so the warranty won't cover it.

In the same way as you couldn't expect Honda to pay for any paint related issues on a 7 year old car, etc.

I think the most you can hope for is a gesture from the dealer.

[ChilledBud]

Well HUK are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I had the big chief from the dealer phone to sort out the issue, and it's agreed a new roof will be fitted at their cost via Swansea, and since they can't get a diamond finish on the alloy wheel they will pay half the cost for doing all 4 elsewhere.

[richmc]

ChilledBud, on 22 February 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Well HUK are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I had the big chief from the dealer phone to sort out the issue, and it's agreed a new roof will be fitted at their cost via Swansea, and since they can't get a diamond finish on the alloy wheel they will pay half the cost for doing all 4 elsewhere.

About the wheels, thats a discrace, I had my '56 diamond cut alloys refurbed last year at a small local outfit with no problems, tell them to get the wheel done again by someone who can diamond cut it.

[ChilledBud]

richmc, on 22 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

ChilledBud, on 22 February 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Well HUK are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I had the big chief from the dealer phone to sort out the issue, and it's agreed a new roof will be fitted at their cost via Swansea, and since they can't get a diamond finish on the alloy wheel they will pay half the cost for doing all 4 elsewhere.

About the wheels, thats a discrace, I had my '56 diamond cut alloys refurbed last year at a small local outfit with no problems, tell them to get the wheel done again by someone who can diamond cut it.

They've had them two months . To be honest they offered for me to find someone who can and they pay, or half the cost of all four being redone, which I will in a new colour.

[GREGSTERWIZ]

richmc, on 22 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

About the wheels, thats a discrace, I had my '56 diamond cut alloys refurbed last year at a small local outfit with no problems, tell them to get the wheel done again by someone who can diamond cut it.

The dealer may have a point to be fair. If the OP's car is an 04/05 they have the OEM wheels with the chrome lip around the wheel and small chrome inserts on the spokes.

It's a different wheel to an 06 car. The spokes are slightly narrower, etc.

Expensive to refurb back to oem spec.

This post has been edited by GREGSTERWIZ: 22 February 2012 - 11:57 AM