[OVER 9000!]

Hi all! Okay, first off I have a little story. I went over to Hibdon's the other day to swap the fronts and rears from left to right vice versa because I knew that the insides of my tires were getting very worn down (I have an '02 S, stock wheels, stock suspension). After about thirty minutes of waiting they come back to tell me they cannot swap them over because the tread is worn down to 2/32nd's on the inside. I told them that that is just camber wear and that if they swapped them that it would even out the wear because the fully treaded outside of the tire would be on the inside. After hearing this the service tech kept saying that will not work and rambling on about the inside tread. I found it to be quite ridiculous that they would rather send me on my way with the dangerous setup that they're telling me I have rather than just accepting my money and using some common sense to see that the other setup is safer even though it is only a temporary fix.

Okay so now that I'm through ranting on to the original question! Which tire do you guys think is the best compromise between tread wear and performance?
I am looking to get around 15-20k miles out of the set of tires including let's say 12 autocross sessions (1 per month) with exceptional dry grip as well as being safe in the wet. I daily drive my S so if the tire is very noisy please tell me ( it isn't that big of a deal to me, but I'd still like to know). I'm a college student so I have very little to spend and want to keep it under $130 a tire if possible. Just let me know if I need to be a little more relaxed with my requirements, I just wanted to let you all know what I was looking for instead of being "that guy" and posting a vague question and expecting someone to somehow come up with the right answer.

Also I had one other question. Is it possible to squeeze a 225/50/16 tire on the stock ap1 front wheels?

This post has been edited by OVER 9000!: 22 February 2012 - 06:08 AM

[ZDan]

Tread down to 2/32 = tire is done as far as any reputable shop is concerned. Apply the money you wanted to spend on flipping them to new tires, immediately.

Conti ExtremeContact DW will probably give you the best compromise between wet grip, dry grip, and longevity (340 treadwear rating). Somewhat squishy sidewalls, though. $107 at Tire RAck
Hankook RS-3s at the back of my car are at ~15k miles and look to be good for at least 20k total. More dry grip, less wet grip and life (140 tw rating)vs. the Conti. $106
Hankook V12 evo K110, another good choice if not outstanding, a little cheaper, $97

You can run 225/50-16 on 6.5" wide AP1 fronts.

All of the info above and more (survey results, objective test results) is available to you at the Tire Rack site, btw.


What are your alignment settings, toe in particular? Huge impact on life.

This post has been edited by ZDan: 22 February 2012 - 06:37 AM

[OVER 9000!]

I know it wasn't too smart of me, but I was just wanting to make these tires last as long as possible. And since I drive the car only once a week I could've probably made them last until the summer, but I'm just gonna bite the bullet and get new tires.
How do your RS-3's hold up in the cold? I've read that they don't have much grip below 50 degrees.

Will running the 225's on the front be counterproductive? I just don't know if the wider tire will affect the sidewall flex or cause problems. And how wide can I go on the rears?

And for alignment, I haven't had an alignment done since I bought the car, but I'm going to take it in to a reputable shop soon and get that sorted out so that these tires will last as long as possible.

This post has been edited by OVER 9000!: 22 February 2012 - 10:44 AM

[deepbluejh]

RS-3s lasting for 20k miles in the back is news to me. I didn't think these things got very good treadlife - especially with aggressive driving.

[ZDan]

OVER 9000!, on 22 February 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

I know it wasn't too smart of me, but I was just wanting to make these tires last as long as possible. And since I drive the car only once a week I could've probably made them last until the summer, but I'm just gonna bite the bullet and get new tires.
How do your RS-3's hold up in the cold? I've read that they don't have much grip below 50 degrees.

Cold/wet grip isn't that great, but not horrible in my experience (I only just swapped over to winter tires last weekend).

Quote

Will running the 225's on the front be counterproductive? I just don't know if the wider tire will affect the sidewall flex or cause problems.

Not a big deal. Smidge more oversteer, but should be good for autoX.

Quote

And how wide can I go on the rears?

For the best street tires, 225/50-16 is your only choice.

Quote

And for alignment, I haven't gotten an alignment done since I bought the car, but I'm going to take it in to a reputable shop soon and get that sorted out so that these tires will last as long as possible.

don't go with stock spec (a very wide range, most of which sucks).
For autoX/street, stock suspension, I'd go with max available camber, zero front toe (maybe a smidge toe-out?), 0.2 degrees *total* rear toe. this will GREATLY improve rear tire life, too, btw.

This post has been edited by ZDan: 22 February 2012 - 11:50 AM

[OVER 9000!]

Why would there be more oversteer from changing the fronts to wider tires?
Will that little bit of positive toe help decrease oversteer? And how will that the positive toe increase tire life?
Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.

[ZDan]

OVER 9000!, on 22 February 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Why would there be more oversteer from changing the fronts to wider tires?

More grip up front, more oversteer. IMO, nothing to worry about, really. Change in handling balance with 10% change in tire width stagger isn't that big a deal.

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Will that little bit of positive toe help decrease oversteer?

The 0.2 degrees total toe-in in back I suggest is a lot less than the AP1 spec range of 0.32deg to 0.64deg.
0.2deg is enough. Too much rear toe (>0.4 if you ask me) results in all manner of evil, including: greatly reduced tire life, twitchiness/nonlinearity of handling over bumps or in traction-challenged conditions, reduced turn-in response.

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And how will that the positive toe increase tire life?

Again, 0.2deg total is somewhat *less* than the minimum spec rear toe. You could run 0.1 total or even zero if you want, I've only run as little as 0.15 without any issues so I hesitate to recommend less than that.

[mazdaspeed00]

i understand your frustration with the tire shop not swapping your tires but look at it from their point of view.

2/32 is the legal limit in which your required to get new tires by law. you can get a fix-it ticket for it.

if the shop were to swap tires for you @ 2/32 and you were to get into an accident you could potentially sue them and win because they broke the law.

why would any shop risk that for 20-40 bucks?

a lot of people get upset and think a tire shop is just trying to up-sell them on a new set of tires but really they are just protecting themselves.

try going to a mom and pop tire shop if you really want them switched.

[OVER 9000!]

Ohh okay. I didn't know the stock specs for the ap1 so I didn't realize that they had so much toe to begin with.
Did you notice more oversteer when you reduced the amount of toe? Also how long do you think it should take a shop to align everything? Because I contacted the shop I'm going to take the S to and they said its $90 an hour for alignment and I don't want to get taken advantage of on the labor charges.

[OVER 9000!]

mazdaspeed00, on 22 February 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

i understand your frustration with the tire shop not swapping your tires but look at it from their point of view.

2/32 is the legal limit in which your required to get new tires by law. you can get a fix-it ticket for it.

if the shop were to swap tires for you @ 2/32 and you were to get into an accident you could potentially sue them and win because they broke the law.

why would any shop risk that for 20-40 bucks?

a lot of people get upset and think a tire shop is just trying to up-sell them on a new set of tires but really they are just protecting themselves.

try going to a mom and pop tire shop if you really want them switched.

Yeah that is true. I realized that, but I was just frustrated at the moment. I'm over it now though.

[rrounds]

You can take the wheels off and take them in and tell them its a "off road" car. I also flip my tires when the inside gets thin and that is all I have to tell them and they get right on it(they also note it on the bill "for off road only"). The Conti ExtremeContact DW would be my choice for a good compromise between wet, dry, and longevity.
I run little to no toe on my '06 and my tire mileage is not to bad now.

ROD

[Jim@tirerack]

I don't see any way possible you are going to get 20K on the S2K with autocross and the negative camber you are running. The DW is a good option along with the Hankook Ventus V12. I would suggest getting an alignment done before changing the tires or at the same time.
Like others have said the liability is too high to put the worn tires back on the car. They may even out but they are already bald on the inside. Too big a chance for damage.
If I can help let me know.

[ZDan]

OVER 9000!, on 22 February 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Ohh okay. I didn't know the stock specs for the ap1 so I didn't realize that they had so much toe to begin with.
Did you notice more oversteer when you reduced the amount of toe?

When I first tracked the car, I let myself be talked into going to max spec 0.64 rear toe to prevent the dreaded AP1 oversteer with minimal tire stagger. After two events, the rears were GONE! So tire wear drove me to reduce it, intended to go from 0.64deg total to 0.30deg total, but the shop accidentally gave me 0.15deg total.
I was very concerned about massive oversteer, but NO. In fact, the car behaved a lot more predictably and less twitchy with the hugely reduced toe. And tire life more than doubled! And mileage went up.

Quote

Also how long do you think it should take a shop to align everything? Because I contacted the shop I'm going to take the S to and they said its $90 an hour for alignment and I don't want to get taken advantage of on the labor charges.

You should be able to find a shop that will do it all (actually ADJUST toe and camber at all four corners *to your spec*) for less than $100 total.

[afzan]

I'm happy with my RE760 Sports, I autox/track them too (obviously not as good as starspecs/rs3/etc for track/autox)

[Manga_Spawn]

I have the Evos on mine and really like them. While the inside is wear a little faster than the outside its not by much (I don't autox though). I have driven in rain without much issue and since it doesn't get very cold here I can't speak to that. For the money they are great tires and I will be getting them again.

[vduber]

Have and had evos on mine as well love these tires, got about 12k of hard driving out of them but I ran them dangerously low, they looked like slicks and I almost had steel showing what a great mechanic I am. It's quite terrifying hittin runnin water on pavement at 70 mph and having your car go sideways and hoping to steer your way out of such a situation. Moral of the story buy new tires unless you wanna poo your pants alil
-chris

[XtC-604]

I would recommened the Direzza Star Specs.

I switched over to V12s primarily because i was planning on selling the rims/tires very soon but needed something to drive on for the time being.
What a mistake!

The direzzas lasted me about 30,000kms, with 1 track day, and a few auto crosses. But i do drive fairly spiritedly.
Great tires. Exceptional dry grip, good stiff sidewalls, fantastic wet traction until it gets to about 1/4th tread left, then it just gets scary. One big downside that some people would care about would be tire noise.

Now on to the V12s.
They are acceptable tires. Decent dry grip, Slightly more than your typical all seasons. Softer sidewall in comparison to the Direzzas. Wet straightline traction is decent, horrid lateral grip though in the rain. Quieter tires. I believe these also have a higher treadwear rating.

[OVER 9000!]

I got my V12's! So far I really like them, but I haven't really been able to put them to the test. They actually have pretty good wet grip too from what I can tell. I also got an alignment done and asked for custom specs. Apparently I was running .33 on the left front and -.2 on the front right I got all that worked out and I am running -1.5 camber in the front, -2.2 in the rear, and unfortunately when i asked them to set the toe to .2 in the rear they thought I meant .2 on each wheel and so now I'm running around .45 toe total in the rear That is still better than the .6 total I had before, but I wish I could take it back in and have them change it.

[OVER 9000!]

ZDan, on 22 February 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

OVER 9000!, on 22 February 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Ohh okay. I didn't know the stock specs for the ap1 so I didn't realize that they had so much toe to begin with.
Did you notice more oversteer when you reduced the amount of toe?

When I first tracked the car, I let myself be talked into going to max spec 0.64 rear toe to prevent the dreaded AP1 oversteer with minimal tire stagger. After two events, the rears were GONE! So tire wear drove me to reduce it, intended to go from 0.64deg total to 0.30deg total, but the shop accidentally gave me 0.15deg total.
I was very concerned about massive oversteer, but NO. In fact, the car behaved a lot more predictably and less twitchy with the hugely reduced toe. And tire life more than doubled! And mileage went up.

Quote

Also how long do you think it should take a shop to align everything? Because I contacted the shop I'm going to take the S to and they said its $90 an hour for alignment and I don't want to get taken advantage of on the labor charges.

You should be able to find a shop that will do it all (actually ADJUST toe and camber at all four corners *to your spec*) for less than $100 total.

I wouldn't be that surprised about the decrease in oversteer and the increase in predictability. I've been doing some light reading on toe and realized that I had toe in and toe out mixed up. I wouldn't be that surprised because positive toe is toe out, and so if you point the rear tires out more then it makes sense that they would slide easier as well as wear quicker. I'm wondering if anyone has tried running negative toe on their rears with good results? Because then you would have the rears pointed inwards and it would increase stability. Although it might increase understeer or make the rear feel sluggish I think it might solve the oversteer problem.

[m55555]

ZDan, on 22 February 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Conti ExtremeContact DW will probably give you the best compromise between wet grip, dry grip, and longevity (340 treadwear rating). Somewhat squishy sidewalls, though. $107 at Tire RAck

10000% agree on squishy sidewalls, especially coming from a set of Toyo RA1s. For that reason I won't be getting DW next time, although it is a good DD tire if you need wet grip.