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need help with fuel pressure test

#1 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 07:19 PM

hey guys, 03 ap1 here, 76k. i've been tracing down a power loss problem for a few months now. it almost feels like i have about 400lbs in the trunk, some days are better than others, but it's not like it was when i first got it in april of this year.

i was fidgeting around today and the first thing i noticed was that the line from the intake to the pcv had an extra pcv in the line??? don't know why really, is this anything you guys have seen before?? regardless i've removed it and re-piped the hose. i tried to do the pcv inspection per helms manual, but couldn't get the pcv to make any sort of clicking noise by crimping the hose as described in the manual. i pulled it out, cleaned it, and still no clicky noise.

then i was fidgeting further and happened to pull the vac line off of the fuel pressure regulator. the car instantly perked up and seem to run even smoother than it already was. so i gave the throttle a quick snap and as it dropped back down into idle, i didn't get that stumble/ engine shake feeling that i was used to. so then with the vac line still disconnected from the fuel pressure regulator i went for a drive, and what do you know, i got my old car back. it seemed almost as peppy, if not as peppy as it did when i first got it.

i read through the manual a bit more and looked up some "how this works" videos on fuel pressure regulators, and it seems by disconnecting the vac from the fuel pressure regulator that i've increased fuel pressure a bit. from what i've read it could be a bad fuel pressure regulator, clogged return fuel line, clogged fuel filter or pump on it's way out. i haven't had any starting issues and the only code that pops up is a p1457 (evap leak), and it only comes up once a month or so.

so i'd like to diagnose this, but i need a way to test the fuel pressure. the helms manual has a gauge/adapter kit listed, but do you guys have any experience with the thread size at the test point(fuel pulsation damper?) i have plenty of gauges that can test liquid psi, but i'm not sure what adapter i'll need at the pulsation damper threads.


check this video out if you don't mind. it's basically a reiteration of what i just typed.
http://youtu.be/ywjmduxCxA8


this was my original thread, it has descriptions of what i've done so far. pretty much everything but a fuel pressure test.

http://www.s2ki.com/...1#entry21724275

This post has been edited by MR.T: 11 August 2012 - 07:22 PM


#2 User is offline   franky 

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 07:48 PM

Tat extra pvc in the line is mayb bcause the car was turbo or supercharge n since the stock pcv is plastic its not strong enough to hold pressure tats y an extra pcv was used.

To test ur pcv, take it off n shake it n listen for the clicking noises.

If u r able to startup everytime then i dont think anything is clog. Mayb ur fp is goin out.

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:08 PM

View Postfranky, on 11 August 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Tat extra pvc in the line is mayb bcause the car was turbo or supercharge n since the stock pcv is plastic its not strong enough to hold pressure tats y an extra pcv was used.

To test ur pcv, take it off n shake it n listen for the clicking noises.

If u r able to startup everytime then i dont think anything is clog. Mayb ur fp is goin out.


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#4 User is offline   franky 

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:37 PM

Tryin 2 b short and 2 the point

#5 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:17 AM

View Postfranky, on 11 August 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Tat extra pvc in the line is mayb bcause the car was turbo or supercharge n since the stock pcv is plastic its not strong enough to hold pressure tats y an extra pcv was used.

To test ur pcv, take it off n shake it n listen for the clicking noises.

If u r able to startup everytime then i dont think anything is clog. Mayb ur fp is goin out.



thanks man. i found out that the pcv is new and it seems to be working properly, as far as not clogged and moving freely. i just can't get it to make a clicking noise as described in the helms manual. it basically says to "pinch the hose from the intake to the pcv with your fingers or pliers." if the pcv is working properly it should make a clicking noise, and mine's not. like i said though, mine is new and when i take it out and jiggle it, suck or blow on it, it seems to be working fine.

i'm basically just curious if anyone has used a fuel pressure test kit on this motor, and if they have, what style fitting did they use to attach to the fuel rail? your assumption that the fuel pump is going out is probably a good one, but i'd rather go through the prescribed diagnostics first, before i just start assuming and throwing parts at it.

i went out driving last night and i really think that the car is at 100% with the vac disconnected from the fuel pressure regulator. does anyone know why this is? i can't quite wrap my head around why it's making such a difference. from what i read the vac only affects the fuel pressure regulator at idle, because during wide open throttle there is not much vaccum.

#6 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 05:30 PM

i've always been long winded, so more to the point. does anyone have any experience testing the fuel pressures on these cars? if so, how'd you do it?

#7 User is offline   franky 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:05 PM

you can install a fuel pressure gauge 0-100psi in the fuel rail or get a fuel pressure gauge and an adapter to test the fuel pressure. Tapping a fuel pressure gauge into the fuel rail would be cheaper. but if you want the test kit then you will have to get this gauge part #07406-004000A online and the adapter part #07VAJ-0040100 and 4 extra washers part #16705-PD1-003 from the honda dealership.

#8 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:56 PM

View Postfranky, on 14 August 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

you can install a fuel pressure gauge 0-100psi in the fuel rail or get a fuel pressure gauge and an adapter to test the fuel pressure. Tapping a fuel pressure gauge into the fuel rail would be cheaper. but if you want the test kit then you will have to get this gauge part #07406-004000A online and the adapter part #07VAJ-0040100 and 4 extra washers part #16705-PD1-003 from the honda dealership.




i have the helms, and i read that about the part/tool numbers, but i was told that honda specific tools were not made available to the public. the tap is a good idea too though. if i can just figure out what threads are at the pulsation damper, i could probably adapt it to a 1/4" ips fitting and then to a gauge. i'll do a search for the tools you mentioned first.

thanks for the help franky

This post has been edited by MR.T: 14 August 2012 - 07:57 PM


#9 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:40 AM

I took apart the pulsation damper last night, so just a warning to everyone. there's no way to adapt to that style fitting unless you own a precision machine shop.
I'll track down the adapter (Gauge attachment #07VAJ-0040100) at Honda, hopefully they'll sell it to me.

If not I'll have to go off of franky's suggestion to tap the fuel rail with some npt thread. I'm assuming removing the fuel rail would be smart to prevent any escaped shards from stopping up injectors???

#10 User is offline   4forall 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:56 AM

Yes i would highly recommend removing the fuel rail before drilling/tapping. Also its interesting that removing the vac line to the FPR perks the car up. I may have to try this. Also if this is an indication of a failing part, fuel pump/fpr or somthing similar how do we diagnose this?

I shall use teh search function to see if there is a thread on this already.

Personally my own symptoms up untill now have just been a poor idle which is very common. But the past week there have been two times where i go to get the car the beans and it just feels bogged down. Its only happened twice. I just associated it with heak soak. Being as its getting near 95f every day here in montgomery. Also the two times it has happen was after i drove the car, turned it off, went inside a store for no more than 10 mins. Starts up just fine, go to pull out of parking lot and i feel like im dragging a baby elephant behind me lol. Let off the throttle push in the clutch, go again and all is well.

#11 User is offline   franky 

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:38 PM

you can get the fuel pressure gauge here http://www.boats.net...06-004000B.html and the adapter at any honda dealership. Thats where i got mine. Tat gauge will fit in the adapter. The dealership will sell u the adapter but not the gauge. u will also need 4 washers. two of them will be use for the testing the the other two will be use for putting it back together. Trust me, i learned it the hard way. Once you removed the damper, the washer under the fuel hose and the washer under the damper will be useless unless you can align them perfectly in place or esle there will be a leak.

This post has been edited by franky: 17 August 2012 - 12:40 PM


#12 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

View Post4forall, on 17 August 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Yes i would highly recommend removing the fuel rail before drilling/tapping. Also its interesting that removing the vac line to the FPR perks the car up. I may have to try this. Also if this is an indication of a failing part, fuel pump/fpr or somthing similar how do we diagnose this?

I shall use teh search function to see if there is a thread on this already.

Personally my own symptoms up untill now have just been a poor idle which is very common. But the past week there have been two times where i go to get the car the beans and it just feels bogged down. Its only happened twice. I just associated it with heak soak. Being as its getting near 95f every day here in montgomery. Also the two times it has happen was after i drove the car, turned it off, went inside a store for no more than 10 mins. Starts up just fine, go to pull out of parking lot and i feel like im dragging a baby elephant behind me lol. Let off the throttle push in the clutch, go again and all is well.



to diagnose the fpr/fuel pump you'll have to preform a fuel pressure test and use the gauge attachment, franky provided the part number for, in the above post.

the description you provided of you cars performance sounds just like mine, but mine has been doing this since the beginning of may. i've been to a dyno and had some decent numbers for a stock s2k but 2 out of 3 runs showed fairly significant drops in hp, a/f ratios seemed to be in spec though. but i just absolutely know that something is not right.

taking the vac line off of the fpr increases the fuel pressure at the rail a bit, i'd have to look at the helms, but i think around 5psi. that's why i'm trying to do this fuel pressure test. i'm somewhat leaning toward a fuel or vaccum problem.

#13 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:50 AM

View Postfranky, on 17 August 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

you can get the fuel pressure gauge here http://www.boats.net...06-004000B.html and the adapter at any honda dealership. Thats where i got mine. Tat gauge will fit in the adapter. The dealership will sell u the adapter but not the gauge. u will also need 4 washers. two of them will be use for the testing the the other two will be use for putting it back together. Trust me, i learned it the hard way. Once you removed the damper, the washer under the fuel hose and the washer under the damper will be useless unless you can align them perfectly in place or esle there will be a leak.



thanks so much man. i called honda yesterday and gave them that part number after cross referencing it myself from the helms. they said that it didn't show in their system, so i'm waiting on a call back from them hopefully monday.

good info on the metal washers. i actually got my old ones to seal yesterday, but don't recommend it for anyone. fuel leaks are too dangerous in the engine bay to really take a chance.

do you know off the top of your head what threads, or style connection that the honda fuel rail adapter has going to the pressure gauge? i own a plumbing co, and have all types of gauges and brass adapters to make my own gauge/hose assembly.

#14 User is offline   franky 

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:50 PM

do you know off the top of your head what threads, or style connection that the honda fuel rail adapter has going to the pressure gauge? i own a plumbing co, and have all types of gauges and brass adapters to make my own gauge/hose assembly.
[/quote]

it's M6X1.0

#15 User is offline   MR.T 

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:00 PM

thanks man

#16 User is offline   4forall 

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:57 AM

Well let us know how the test goes. Im curious myself. If my issue becomes any worse/frequent then i will probably do the test myself. However i have ITB's going on within the next two months. Replacing the whole fuel system besides the pump, as well has having fuel pressure gauge on my aftermarket regulator will show me right away any issues.

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