arsenal

I agree, was hoping for a dyno before tuning

StormTroopinAP2

from above:

Graph #1 depicts - 100% stock motor w/ 70MM single Forcewerkz exhaust (stock cat) = 130ft-lbs torque and 195whp

s2sik

I guess this is what I signed up for as a tester

I will try to answer all the questions the best I can. I am not an expert like many of you, and I could only control what I could control in terms of variables. The tuner is the owner/tuner at Trackforged; which many of you may know, they tune a good amount of S2000s since they are a sponsor on this forum and offer their Trackforged turbo kits with a fair amount of success. In addition, the tuner himself owns and races his S2000. His approach surly was consultative, as he would tell me the risk/benefits of changes with the considerations for my intended use. He then allowed me to make the appropriate decisions based on my comfort level and objectives.

I think I am doing a poor job of presenting the results, since it appears there is some confusion. I will try to clarify...


The rev limiter is currently set at 8600rpms with VTEC engagement reduced from 6000rpms to 5500rpms. I didn't feel comfortable having the rev limiter set any higher until I do valve springs and retainers. For the purpose of the testing, you will see that in graph 1, the rev limiter is increased in order to do a full pull to see where the power falls off. This is in anticipation if the URGE header makes power pass where the OEM rev limiter was set, we have data in those upper RPMS. There was no tune or changes that occurred. That graph depicts my car in completely stock form besides the exhaust.


As previously stated, I will try to get new scans up for everybody ASAP. Yes, it appears that they cross at ~6,300rpms.


I think these are all legitimate questions. I believe I have answered your first question in the previous post. The second question, the 202hp pull has the rev limiter set at 8,600rpms; I explained why above. The 214hp pull has the rev limiter set at 8,900rpm (and later reduced to 8,600 on my final tune).

The question is then, why did he pull all the way to 8,900rpms... he wanted to see what the URGE header could potentially do. He had told me that the header kept on making power up top, and as you can see, even at 8,900rpms doesn't fall off yet. Maybe the graph would have made more sense if I had him also overlay the very first pull from graph 1 that went to 8,900rpms. In all honesty, he was already doing me a great favor and was extremely busy that week and the day of. I asked for what I had asked for and he provided me with the corresponding overlays. I could of theoretically asked for tons of them, but I asked for the ones that I felt would offer the most benefit to the average s2000 enthusiast like myself. In hindsight, I would have asked for graph 1 to be overlayed with graph 2?

Regarding the timing and fuel, I couldn't tell you the exact specifics of how much and what, if any, were adjusted. The purpose of the tuned over tuned comparison theoretically omit those considerations? (I could be wrong?) My logic was- we tuned for optimal performance with the OEM header (give or take any timing and fuel considerations), then you install the header, and tune again for optimal performance with the URGE header (give or take any timing and fuel considerations). You would then be comparing optimal tunes versus optimal tunes, this would net you any real gains from the header itself. Whereas many header testing reviews I have seen post a before install and after install, versus a tuned over tuned. To me, this muddys the real net gains since it is hard to determine how much is due to the header; versus how much of it is because the header leaned out the stock tune. Sorry folks, this is all I got

P.S. regarding the test pipe, I did own one and removed it and sold it prior to testing. I wanted the car as close to stock trim as possible. I am either going to purchase an ASM exhaust and couple it with a Berk HFC, or purchase the URGE/Gernby exhaust if/when it comes out.


I would inquire with Patrick at URGE, since they are still in the research and development phase, I don't know what pricing will be.


I am sorry, I don't think I quite follow this, that was the testing process? We did a stock pull, graph 1, Flashpro tune without header, graph 2 (202hp), *installed header*, graph 2 (214), is Urge header and retuned. If I am not interpreting your question correctly, please rephrase for me. English is my second language!


English is NOT your second language, *PAWNED*, Refer to StormTroopinAP2 please

arsenal

No, a dyno of the new header untuned...

Untuned Stock vs. Untuned Urge
Tuned Stock vs. Tuned Urge

Unless I am missing something, it went

Untuned Stock vs. Tuned Stock vs. Tuned Urge.

T

s2sik

^touché my friend

You are correct, I did not get a dyno of stock tune + Urge header; but having said that, I would refer you to my logic as posted above.

"Whereas many header testing reviews I have seen post a before install and after install, versus a tuned over tuned. To me, this muddys the real net gains since it is hard to determine how much is due to the header; versus how much of it is because the header leaned out the stock tune."

So once I had considered that, and then you consider I am funding this (albeit with some of Urges help), it just didn't make a ton of sense for me at the time to ask him to reload my stock tune again, then run, then reload previous tune, and then retune. Even with Urges contribution this endeavor cost me north of $3,000 to pursue as-is, so that was enough for me. (Header, Flashpro, Tuning, clutch/flywheel, the maintenance prior to testing, the hiccups + labor) Actually, don't remind me

Urge

We are not asking for Before and After dynos untuned for a few reasons.

1st, with out tuning we have no idea if the header is making power due to scavenging, less restricting etc or gains are made from simply leaning out the tune. Most headers tend to show 2-5 HP at certain RPMs. Leaning out the stock tune via an ECU can do the same thing. Once you tune before and after, you understand the real gains of the mod are.

2nd, if you have huge flow gains through the engine, it can be dangerous to run a motor in open loop past VTEC as you can get too lean. Even if you had knock protection then you are simply limiting your gains.

Pricing is coming soon. We have also had a very successful test on a Supercharged Motor. We are waiting for one more test then we will post pricing, details and all 3 test on our site and start a Group Buy.

arsenal

Makes sense, but for us AP1 owners we have to go to a full EMS to 'tune' which drives the cost up considerably

Thank you for taking the time to do this! I was glancing at the thread during meetings - hence the semi shortness...

Did you notice a difference in sound at all?

iDomN8U

That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying this.

I disagree with optimal tuning from a timing perspective. Yes you lean or enrich your tune for optimal perform for the part, I agree with you on this, you need to optimally tune for the part, remove and retune for the new part (and if you have dyno time, do a run before and after each tuning to see the differences). I'm seeing 12.9 on graph #1 (probably getting lean due to 8900 rpm) and 11.9-12.5ish on your tuned runs. IMHO and NA I would think being in the 13.0 WOT range is optimal but a good tuner will know if that's going to net you additional power (plus save you a few MPG along the way), but I digress.

You can push timing to generate some really good gains, but you want a margin of safety to coincide for hot days, shitthy gas, etc.... Therefore timing could account for some of the gains seen here, but we don't know that for sure without a log.

This header seems to be a very top end orientated judging by this and the SC dyno. It would be nice to see when the power starts to drops off.

s2sik

From the sounds of it, this likely will make it into production. So I am sure someone out there will eventually do an AP1 before/after install dyno without a tune you can reference. We could also meet up at Skyline restaurant for a bite, you could check out the header in person to get an idea of build quality, and we can jam through Germantown!

You know, I am going to say I am pretty surprised by this, but no, I did not notice a significant change in sound. I didn't feel like their was much, if any, change in exhaust tone. Also when I had my Toda header installed, I felt like the valve train was much more audible; but I couldn't tell much of a difference this time around with the Urge. As you know, I also have the carbon and vented hood, which theoretically should project more sound. I am also probably older than most on this board, so my hearing is probably a lot worse

Aurex

Urge, your comment here has caused me to pause for a second. Is the factory ecu not in open loop at wide open throttle? I doubt your header is going to outpace what the factory fuel system and ECU can provide closed or open loop.

Also, it maybe a good idea to get the untuned dyno, because bolt-ons, yo. Not everyone running around with I/H/E is tuned, just a thought.