1st Gen MS3 or Mk7 GTI?
 

I'm exploring a new daily driver. I owned a 2014 stage 3 Focus ST and sold it a year and half ago due to a new home purchase. Now, I'm in the market for a new hot hatch as a daily. For several months, I've been looking into a Mk7 GTI, but I recently found a first gen MS3 with only 28,000 miles for $11,500. Would you still go for the Mk7 GTI or save the $10k and go for the MS3? I'd have to drive 3 hours to even see the MS3, so it's not as easy for me to test drive it and inspect it. The seller (2nd owner) claims that he has all of the maintenance records. I'm still working on trying to get additional pictures, but he hasn't been very responsive. Thanks for your thoughts and feedback.

Here's the ad for the MS3: https://albuquerque.craigslist.org/c...582911741.html

Wait a couple months and get a really good deal on a GTI. If you can live without the sunroof, larger touchscreen, bigger brakes and diff, you can buy the S model for $20k (manual or $21k auto) when dealers start dealing. It has been reported on the "How much did you pay" thread on VW Vortex that that is not an uncommon price when you get past peak summer sale time. You will now get a 6/72 bumper to bumper warranty, and a newer, higher tech, safer, more efficient car.

I would, just for the sake of argument, add a couple to a few grand to the price of the MS3 for things that will need to be replaced in the time you own it (tires, brakes, other things that have aged and might fail) that will not need to be replaced on the Golf. If this MS3 is $11,500 with 28,000 miles on it, unless it has new tires, you should pony up $600 at least for decent tires right off the bat.

If you bought both and drove them for 5 years and put 60,000 miles on them, one would be worth $10k used and have one year left on the warranty and be easier to sell. The other would now be a 16 year old car worth a couple grand and maybe have had a bunch of repairs in the mean time. If the depreciation curve is going to be about the same and you will lose $9-10 k in value over the next five years, take the new car with the warranty.

If I loved the MS3 and the price was $8k I might have a different answer. But it is an 11 year old car at this point. Electrics, gaskets and rubber parts can become an issue. Especially gaskets and seals on a car that has not been driven much.

SO. I've been on the DISI 2.3L platform for about 8 years at this point (jesus). Owned everything from stock to built 600whp versions. Currently have a 06 Speed6 that is fairly modified for street use only.

Anyway.

They are extremely fun vehicles. Gobs of torque, very easy to modify and very reliable when taken care of. When looking at one of these cars there are several components you will NEED to check on a first gen vehicle:
1. VVT/Timing chain recall has been performed. The first VVT actuator was prone to failure; the chain also would stretch over time which can cause the vehicle to skip timing. The tell tale sign of this is the chain slapping the valve cover on cold starts. It's pretty easy to hear it (only happens on a legit cold start though). This part has gone through 3 revisions and was totally fixed by 2010 model year.

2. Compression. The first gen DISI's tend to lose compression in Cyl. 3 due to the intake manifold design (cyl. 3 runs leaner than the others) and the piston design of the 06-09 DISI motor. These issues were also resolved in 2010-2013 model years. Compression check is very easy. Just want to make sure they run even across the board (or within 5% of each other). This should be done on any of these DISI's regardless of MY really just to check.

3. Turbo seals. The K04 on these vehicles is known to start smoking at some point. The swap is fairly easy if you're mechanically inclined (I can do it in about 2 hours now). Remove the intercooler to check for excessive oil in the charge piping. A little is normal.

Other than that it's just a normal car.

If you want a more raw experience go for a Gen1 (07-09). For a little bit nicer interior, less to worry about and up to date go for Gen2 (2010-2013). They're extremely cheap currently and still a pretty large community of people that are very helpful.

I personally am a DISI snob now and wouldn't accept anything less than a GT, which on the first Gens gets your HID lights and LED tail lights. The nav is worthless on all models so i'd avoid that.

PM me or post here with any other questions. It's obvious what I would recommend, as these cars are much faster, easier to work on, and more raw than the GTi's save the latest generation.

I appreciate the feedback from both of you, and you both make very valid points. I do like the factor that the 1st gen MS3 has more of a raw experience; however, with this being a lot more like a daily driver, I probably would lean towards a balance between refinement and fun factor. I think it would make me appreciate the S2K even more if I reserved the raw sports car experience for the S.

vader1, you make a lot of good points logistically and financially, which I definitely need to take into account. Your perspective is something I didn't consider in-depth at this point, but now I see the importance in considering the factors you mentioned. I definitely would want to have a GTI with the LSD (I think it's electronic now and not mechanical?). So I'm assuming my first trim level to shoot for is an SE.

For fun = MS3
Financial sense = GTi.

All the Mazdaspeeds have plummeted in value and will continue to do so unfortunately. All depends what you want. :) GL!

if its a DD, Gti. you couldn't pay me to be stuck in an MS3 everyday. The interior is pretty bad.
I have 11k miles in 5 months on my mk7 gti and love it. The new tech is great. Android auto has Waze.

I just picked up a 07 MS3 as my new daily, and I love it. I won't go into all the post details, since all the great points of the MS3 have already been discussed in detail already.
I bought it from an older guy who took liked modding cars, but also took care of his stuff. It makes 300whp, and it's a BLAST to drive.

I realize that 28k miles is super rare, but I picked mine up for half that price with 120k miles. I don't think it's worth $11k.

My first mod for the MS3 was a 9" Android touchscreen head unit. No complaints anymore about the interior.

I considered going back to the ST. I truly enjoyed that car and wish I didn't sell it, especially since I built it up to stage 3. Moreover, I would get the ST1 since I wasn't very comfortable with the Recaros, so it's a cheaper car than a GTI SE.

With what I was researching, it seemed that a similar amount of money I spent on modding the ST would give me even more gains with the GTI. Another aspect is I'm not so sure if I want to be associated with the ST crowd anymore. When I parted out the car and sold everything, I wasn't too fond of the folks that were buying the parts. But I know, every enthusiast car has a "crowd," and not every ST owner is a part of that crowd.

If you are shooting for a good price on an SE the price goes up and it will be much more than a $10k difference. A good price on a manual/cloth SE seems to be $28k (with a $32k sticker) although many got VW's 0% last year but it is currently .9% financing. It is a pretty loaded car at that point. I might replace my BMW with one later in the fall or next year. I like them quite a bit.

A good point in the MS3 favor is if you have the space and want to be a 2 or 3 car guy, buying the cheaper one allows you to have more. But the GTI is such a good all-arounder, it feels kind of entry level luxury, the ride is really nice, it is sporty. It does pretty much everything, and so does the Mazda but it is not nearly as nice inside or modern. Either could be a good choice, but $11,500 seems kinda high on the MS3.

Or if you really want to bang your head against the wall you can go for a Speed6. Much nicer interior than the Speed3's and more sound deadening. And AWD + EXTREMELY cheap. For example, mine has 78k on it, all the maintenance done, GT all the mods that you need in your life....and I bet I couldn't fetch more than 6k for it.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...e1cde62de2.jpg

Also...my 600whp Speed3. Just because.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...3040b56b5a.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...466193f477.jpg

Yeah there's a bunch of dirt kids that own GTi's, MS3's and ST's. Just how it goes in this segment.

I've always thought the MazdaSpeed's looked like fun cars.

Did you consider a used MKVII GTI? I would imagine you could find one in the mid-teens, price-wise. They seem to be fairly reliable, even as the miles pile on.

I've thought about them as well. They don't pop up that frequently from I've seen here in Albuquerque, especially the sport trim that has the LSD in it.

I've posted about mine several times, i have a 2013 mazdaspeed3, the last year they made it. Same engine etc, love it. Interior is decent but the transmission is pretty good and the torque at 3k is sweet, you better hold on with both hands when you stab the gas or it will take you right off the road.

But as already mentioned, it's not worth jack shit lol. Stock, 2013, 40k miles and i might be able to ask 15k max. Almost any MS3 for sale is 80k+.

I also had a 2008 R32, which has a significantly nicer interior. I miss that car. If I were in your situation it would come down to the $. The MS3 will be so much cheaper, but for more money you'd get a much nicer interior/ride in the GTI.

I also miss my '08 R32, but I'm happy with my '16 GTI S.

Haha, nicely done on the plate. It's not often I see a vanity plate with a mix of truth, irony, and humor.

IMO the main advantage of the 18 GTI compared to 15-17 is the 6 year warranty. You are going to be in the $30k range OTD for a new SE. Since you are talking about power gains, it seems like you want to mod it so that 6 year warranty would be almost useless. There were huge discounts on the 17's and they don't exactly have a great resale either so you should be able to find a lightly used one under $20k. IMO Sport model (17 only) is the sweet spot which is what I ended up with. I would have highly considered a speed3 if they made a current generation. Ultimately, I just wanted all the convenience and features of a new car.

A 2017 Sport is what I'd look for in an ideal situation. The price tag would be lower AND the performance pack is part of the deal. They haven't really been popping up in my area, unfortunately.

The warranty for the 18s is great for sure, but I'm not sure if I could last all six years without modding lol. One option would be the stage 1 APR tune that includes the rest of the warranty time, but I have a good feeling once I go that route, it'll probably only last so long before I want to do more. For those of you who have the S trim, what's your experience with not having the LSD?

Between those two options, I'd go with the new GTI. For a daily, you want something new and reliable with a warranty. If the GTI you want is out of your price range, consider some other cars that might be missing from your list (Civic Si, FEST, etc). That MS3 has low miles, but that's about all it has going for it. The 2008.5+ with Bose are the ones to look for.

Thanks for the suggestions. I used to drive an Si before I bought the S, then I had the Focus ST as a daily. I drove the Fiesta ST when I attended the ST Octane Academy. They are great cars and super fun around the corners, but I couldn't see myself having it as a daily. I really think the GTI is the direction I'm going to take for a hot hatch that strikes the balance of fun and comfort. The S will continue to be my raw sports car experience. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Just have to find the right time for a good deal and to decide if I want to go manual or DSG...

Manual vs. DSG: Keep in mind if you do get the mod bug and decide to flash the car, the DSG will take the extra power no problem, but the clutch on the 6MT will start slipping quick and you'll need a new one.

Yes, I did read about that. The other side of the coin I read is the additional maintenance needed on a DSG. Haven't looked into it enough to know what is all involved in the maintenance schedule.

It basically takes the place of a manual transmission fluid change, but it's far more expensive. 40,000 miles if memory serves.

I typically prefer to do car work myself, so I'll need to do more research in terms of the work involved. Watching a YouTube video now...

50k miles if it's like the MK7 R (my daily)

I cut that in half though and did the big fluid change at 25k and plan on sticking to that schedule. I had a few things done all at once and it was $500 total from the VW dealer. DSG + Diff fluid + Engine oil + some other odds and ends.

$500 every 25k (or even 50k) is not breaking the bank. I'm APR Stage 1 as well.

Doesn't sound that bad at all. I test drove both a manual and a DSG today. I do think, as with any car, the manual is a much more engaging experience. The clutch was so light that I wouldn't mind driving it in traffic if I had too. After I drove the DSG, I was sold on it. It was better than I expected. The shifts were quick and it has the added convenience of going into drive mode for sitting in traffic. It's a middle ground for having an engaging experience while still having the ability to go full auto. With having the S still, I can quench my full driving experience in wanting to drive a manual car by taking the S2K out for a drive. For me, a DSG GTI with the S2K would be a good mix of two driving experiences.

In all honesty if I could go back and do it over again I'd probably suck it up and get the DSG. I loved it in my '08 R32 and after driving the S2000 the GTI's 6MT is pretty sloppy by comparison.

Like any other modern FWD it's just a cable shift. Just how it goes.

If Mazdaspeeds have plummeted in value, that means it makes MORE financial sense to go Mazdaspeed. Terrible resale value means buying a used one is a good deal!

I never understand the argument against buying a particular *used* car because the resale is terrible. That is exactly why you should buy it!

FWIW, wife's '01 Mazda3 (n.a.) is at 195k miles, it has held up remarkably well and is still fun to drive. It did require new struts/shocks a couple of years ago but really happy with the KYB replacements.

Yeah. In those years = it was a Ford with a Mazda chassis basically.

Kind of like how the old Escort everyone liked was on the Mazda B platform.

Funny thing is that my daily is currently an 05 Mazda 3 S hatchback. The first gen Mazda 3 will always be my favorite generation for the exterior design. It's been holding up fantastically at 102K, and it's a great car for commuting. After the ST tho, I miss having boost on my daily commutes.

I did it. After a lot of negotiation between two dealerships, I purchased a GTI SE in Pure White with the DSG. Barely came home from the dealer a few hours ago. I'll try and get pics posted up in these next couple of days.

Normally I don't like white but something about a white GTI is just spot-on. I think it's the contrast with the black and red trim.

I live on a dirt road so anything dark in color was an automatic deal breaker. I already have my S in Berlina Black and that's enough to maintain living in the New Mexican desert lol. Plus, I didn't like the White Silver Metallic color. Here are a couple of pics. Those windows need some tint...

https://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c...8/IMG_0054.jpg

https://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c...8/IMG_0052.jpg

Looks great man! What kind of deal did you get on it?

They gave me the car itself for $29k + TTL. I've seen them sell better in other regions, but it's been the average here in Albuquerque. They gave me WAY more than I was wanting for my Mazda 3 trade. Was able to deal for $27k OTD. Even got the 0.9 APR for 60 months from VW.

I own both a 2018 GTI S with the DSG and a 2002 Honda S2000. The GTI has been a perfectly daily. I went with the DSG just because my wife and I plan to use the GTI for long trips and I already get the fun factor of the manual out of the S2000. The GTI excels in everyday practicality and space, useable loads of torque on the commute, and the quiet and comfortable nature of the cabin. If you are looking for pure fun factor, then the MS3 might be your better option. If you want a warranty and a fun do-it-all car, get the GTI. I highly recommend the GTI as a daily.

Nice choice. I was thinking about exactly the same car for a new daily. I have driven the manual R and it was not worth the extra coin over the GTI with a manual. Still need to try the DSG R before I decide.

As for the manual in the GTI or the R, IMHO, the DSG is better suited to the car, and I am pretty much a manual or nothing guy. The reason I say this is that the manual is geared SUPER tall. I think they do 73 MPH in second gear. The redline is also pretty low on the engine, but the power comes on at the top of the rev range. Unless you are always driving it like you stole it, in first and second gear, you wait out the turbo lag, get a rush of power, immediately hit the limiter and shift. All the joy of working the gear box is taken away from the tall gearing and low redline. With shorter gearing it would not look as good on paper, but would be a lot more fun to work in traffic. The DSG just keeps the car in the powerband and shifts instantly. The manual shifts fine, and the feel is OK, but is pretty joyless the way it is set up.

The GTI looks great. I do really like the Mk7.5 facelift.

Spot-on. It is geared really tall, which does make it hard to keep the boost up. You really do have to wring it out to maximize power, but there's an awful lot of power on tap. This engine is definitely underrated.

Agreed. That's why I went with the DSG for the GTI. It'll be a good balance to have the DSG for the daily and the MT in the S. Now I just need to finish putting the mods on the S and getting it tuned so I can drive it again.

I'm a manual or nothing guy too. I want my drives to be engaging and involved. There was just something about the DSG that felt right for the car itself and the purpose for which I would be using the car. If I didn't have the S as the fun car, I may have decided differently.

You know, the car does feel a little faster than it says on paper. I did find this, not sure if it's an accurate test. https://jalopnik.com/2015-gti-might-...han-1683694189

Congrats on the Pure White SE with plaid interior, sweet combo! My previous daily was a 2006 Mazda3 hatch as well, still think it's the best looking generation.