Yes that's an important distinction (didn't realize you're international). The 5th gen Prelude was only available in the US with 1 engine. The 4th generation had 2-4 varieties here, however.

 

The BB6 was also $50k when adjusted for inflation. And just because it handled well doesn't mean it was a sports car. It was always a GT. The DC2/ITR, EJ Civic, EP3 Si, DC5 RSX, and S2000 were the sports cars (although the RSX didn't overlap with BB6 production). The Prelude was meant to be their luxury showcase and a grand tourer.

An Aston Martin DB12 handles well, but that doesn't mean it's still just a GT car with sporty tendencies. There is a reason the BB6 wasn't raced when Honda had a ton of other models that were far sportier and purpose built. Hell, the H22 was designed with a lowered the torque curve precisely because that's the quality of a GT car. It's not meant to be rev happy, it's meant to have torque available lower down in the rev band.

Also, the CTR FWD hate is hilarious precisely because the CTR does insanely well on track for a FWD car. Hell, the time attack lap record at Buttonwillow CW13 is a 1:37 in a Civic Si, which was faster than Feras Qartoumy in his C6 Z06: https://globaltimeattack.com/records...t=Buttonwillow

 

Track times are fodder because those are ideal conditions. Most people live in 4 seasons, not 1. And even those of us who actually do trackdays, it’s only a couple of days out of a year. And a track day isn’t a competition. There is no rostrum, brolly girls, champagne, or trophies. This or that slower or faster means F all. So the math doesn’t check when you factor this thing in called reality. The CTR is not faster in the rain, in the cold, the snow, etc, will be quite a bit slower in inclement weather and everyone has to drive in inclement weather unless you live in Slo Cal.

I owned a EP3 Si and a RSX Type S, and neither one of them were “sports cars”. Nobody “hates” the CTR either. We think it’s overpriced for what it is or for that price it should be AWD. Its unofficial name is the Hype R for good reason. People way overhype it, especially Honda sycophants.

 

What you're missing is that Honda's lineup in the US for the 80s and 90s was so piss poor (performance-wise) that the Prelude was their BEST sporting offering in the US. I fully concede that viewpoint for international arguments. As to adjusted for inflation, really? That's such a tired and highly inaccurate statement, as it always is. Ignore manufacturing and technology advances, that make everything cheaper. Ignore countries' economic climates, currency fluctuations and trade disruptions. It works in a vacuum and that's it.

Bingo. When I tracked my GR Corolla I was a touch slower than an FL5 CTR. No clue about driver talent though we were both running in an open track solo group, but it also had some mild modifications (at least what I could see visually). Later in the day it rained quite a bit, and in a 30 minute session I almost lapped him.

 

I understand your perspective, and I'm not arguing that the Prelude is sports car or that it is not a GT car, because I agree it's definitely more of a GT leaning car than a sports car, but I think we can both agree it was intended to be a sport-y, not a sport-s car, which is my perspective on it. I recognize that sporty is a very broad definition, in which Honda, and its loyalists, include cars like the Fit and CRZ.

And I understand your point about the international perspective, but to that I will say that Honda still offered the H22 overseas, and I'm sure its relative competition did similar offerings as well, and to make any opinions based on one trim level would be inappropriate. It's like evaluating the MKIV Supra solely on the non turbo automatic variant, ignoring the twin turbo manual.

I'm not sure how the Prelude faired in your country, especially in 5th gen form, but it didn't do too well here. Honda and Prelude fans can say it's a GT car all they want, but there's nothing grand about it. Even before we start talking about outside competition, within Honda, if I said 4 cyl, FWD, coupe, you could say Civic, Accord, and Integra. If I said grand tourer coupe, you could say Accord and CL. Wanna know what all 4 of those models have in common? They all sold well.

I used to walk past Honda everyday after school, and I remember seeing a hunter green Prelude collecting dust in the side lot, had a stick price of 22k. A type SH would've set you back 27k which shocked me when I just looked it up. Meanwhile, they could not keep the $16k EM1 in stock, $22k Integra GSR, or the Accord coupe which even in top fully loaded V6 form $25k. So the Prelude was in a no man's land, the sporty tuner types wanted the lighter Civic or Integra, the cruiser types opted for the Accord coupe and CL ($26k starting), the Prelude couldn't compete with either of those in their respective categories and offered something in between, but the problem is that it didn't really offer anything more than the Integra or the Accord coupe offered other than being different. Which was clearly not enough because it didn't sell.

Pricing is very relevant here. Take the 2000s Toyota Celica with the 2ZZ engine. Toyota tried to position it more as a sportscar than sport compact which was the dying trend by the time 2000 rolled around. It was 26k, when you could buy an Acura RSX, which had superior performance and slightly more practicality for 22k. It wasn't as sleek, but it didn't matter, people saw them as direct competitors.

And this is before we get into other GT cars like the Mustang and Camaro, bother offered V8s for same money as the Prelude.

So Honda is scratching their head about the Prelude was never cheap, but they seemed to have forgotten that by 2001 it was a failure.

And the discouraging thing is that if Honda offers a hotter version of the Prelude, it won't matter per se because it will cost even more, and compete directly with the Type R, not sure how much more performance they can squeeze out of the FWD drivetrain, but I doubt it'll be enough for most folks to want to trade in all the practicality of the Civic for a Prelude. I'm a coupe guy, until my WRX/GRC I only ever bought two doors, but I wouldn't spend significantly more money for same performance with far less practicality just for looks. Similar money yes.

I was sad that the Civic coupe was axed, I recommended that car alot for those who wanted something practical and fun with some personality. The current gen Civic is probably one of the best econo cars ever, and a coupe Si variant for 30k I think is good value. The GR86 will always be my pick, but a Civic coupe will be more practical with more usable space and cargo, just better to live with day to day and still have enough performance to be fun.

But a Civic hybrid coupe with sporty suspension for 42k?

 

Bingo? Seems like track times and performance only matter when it suits some.

Reality? Reality is most drive in areas where we don't have Canyons and twisties, and we're not the only ones on the road where we can drive at "balls to the wall" speeds. And when it snows, you're usually stuck behind someone who is hanging on for dear life and hitting their brakes every few seconds. Mundane driving is what most people do. We're on the same roads everyday doing the same thing along with everyone else. Some will have you believe you need AWD and 1000hp, but in "reality", most are just putting along at less than the speed limit regardless what they're driving. In that regard, we should all be driving Leafs?

 

I do think comparing trim for trim is appropriate. If the next generation Civic doesn't have a Type R, I'm not gonna compare the FL5 to the next gen base car. I would be sad the Type R is discontinued, yes

But yea, your criticism towards the Prelude is fair and clearly directed at both the old and new car making roughly the same mistakes.

The Prelude is quite a niche car for sure and weak from a raw value proposition perspective (price vs performance or practicality). It leans more on being a bit more unique and upmarket, which is a reason for some but not many to want it.

What I am saying is to me it feels pointless to have expected this to be any different this time round.

 

I was pointing out how much the weather compromises the performance of one vehicle over the other, i.e for the money many prefer (and expect) AWD. As to the rest, well not really. Plenty of areas have nobody on the road when its snowing. Though actually I did buy the GRC so I could have uncompromising fun in winter weather...and I do, well when there's snow on the ground

 

That’s a silly argument. If you don’t have canyons, mountain roads, or rural twisties available, then why buy the vehicle in the first place? You bought a performance thing to commute, drive to the grocery store? Pick up children? There are much better vehicles for such things. You made a dumb purchase in that regard. That would be like spending a lot of money to buy all the gear to climb cliffs and mountains but the most you ever do with the gear is climb at the local indoor rock climbing gym. Or spending a lot of money on NV, tactical gear, body armor, expensive firearms, only to sit at a bench and shoot 100 yards max. Vehicles are tools for what you are actually going to do with them. If a vehicle is built for performance driving and you never use it for performance driving around corners, what’s the point? You bought it to front? Or to go to hood up meets and stand around? That would imply you are real concerned with “image” and what strangers think who don’t pay your bills. You just explained why our entire vehicle market in the USDM is mostly fake and why we get such few options in the marketplace. And yup, sounds like a Leaf, cheap EV, or gas economy car would be the better choice for you. Marketing, advertising, image, just own people in this country. Sad. Or people doing this for real, in 4 seasons, discussing performance driving in such weather, people are pointing the finger. Well, we can point right back at ya. My DD is a Leaf for exactly the reasons you outlined above. At least until that Slate EV hits the streets. For boring mundane driving, it’s a great donkey.

Performance matters if you are actually going to use it, for what it was designed for. To sport drive around corners. Track, rural twisties, canyons, or mountain roads. Track times are largely irrelevant in reality. Track days aren’t races. You pay your own money to do a HPDE. They don’t pay you. You don’t win anything. There is no prize money to obtain, no trophies, nothing. If you’re doing better lap times than someone else in a different vehicle it’s irrelevant, fodder. Someone in a less expensive, less hp/tq, could cut better times than you because their skills are higher. They still don’t win anything. Lap times are not 100% irrelevant, it’s just too much importance is placed on them by people who will never go to the track anyways, so in the end does it really matter? People discussing lap times, and debates, and same people don’t sport drive, don’t do track days…that’s akin to people discussing climbing Mt. Everest and debating on it, on the internet, and the most they do is go to a picnic at their local park and climb a lil jungle gym.

Life occurs in 4 seasons for most. Some of us choose to have a performance thing that can be used year round, in any weather condition, vs. a fair weather vehicle. I’ve done many track days in the rain, and a couple while snowing. You spend your money and unless they cancel it due to weather, it’s show up or lose your $. In fact, track days in the wet and snow I’ve done are the most valuable ones I have been at. Being able to hone your skills on the track in inclement weather pays huge dividends on the street. Makes you a more skilled rider/driver, and safer. And AWD means you can hit those same twisties year round in whatever weather. When it snows or heavy rains, many people are skurred, stay home, and it clears the roads out. If you have spent the time at the track and have that experience, instead of sitting home, you get to go anyway vs. sitting on your butt watching streaming services. And that’s the beauty of an AWD performance vehicle. With proper tires it’s a 4 season any weather condition performance vehicle vs. a fair weather one where it’s parked for long stretches in the year. Some AWD variants are rally inspired with their drivetrains built for any weather condition. I’ve owned FWD, RWD, AWD, and 4WD. AWD if the implementation is solid, is my favorite drivetrain for these reasons. FWD is for economy, not performance. RWD ends up being fair weather for the most part but a blast. 4WD is great but only if you are going to use it off-road.

If people bought vehicles for what they are actually going to use them for, vs. image or internet fodder, we’d get much better performance variant options in the marketplace.

 

That same thing happened in my STi and RS both. I did a track day a long time ago in the STi where it started pouring. I was lapping 6 figure machinery all day, every session. One 911 owner who really thought he was Ayrton Senna started lipping off between sessions in the pits. I would pass him several times each session. He said “you are lucky you have AWD” and I replied that luck had nothing to do with it. He was such an ass too when it came time to pass him each session. He would fight like it was the last race in a F1 season and we were both battling for the championship. I’d get around him every time and watch in the rearview, him and his machine step out and squirrel around. I mean it was akin to road rage it was so bad. I honestly didn’t care. No bragging rights as there are no winnings to be had. I was just working on my lines and extreme wet weather cornering. On the contrary, if someone is faster than me I move and wave them by. I’d get by him pretty easily every time but not after, like a child, he threw a tantrum and blocked lines. I’ve been in the exact same situation on a motorcycle track day. Most of us in the session were on liters and there was a sponsored kid, all of 14-15, with a race prepped 2 stroke 250. We’d murder him down the straight but get to the infield and he was cleaning house, big time. But everyone was very supportive of the kid, his dad was there, and when he’d get close, we’d move, wave him by, etc. He was there to practice because they had an upcoming race, I think CMRA. He was fast AF too. Pendulum swings both ways.

Either way I’ll take the AWD variant every time. We get more rain here most years, than Seattle, so wet weather is a thing unless you want to stay home for long stretches during the year. We just had ice and snow for a week last week and with my winter tires and wheels, I did get out in it and have some fun. Even my truck has SH-AWD and driving in it during that 9 day stretch was fun. Putting the drivetrain in snow mode and getting controlled oversteer around corners was quite fun, even in a truck. All seasons on it are Pirellis and they are rated for snow/ice should the need arise. I was going the speed limit but taking corners. I watched in amazement, like every time this happens here, with these FWD vehicles with the wrong tires spinning and sliding all over the place. Going by them at the speed limit while they are driving 20 mph like it’s a school zone with their hazards on. If they’d just buy tires rated for such events they’d be fine but nope. That would require too much thought.