Halfway through dev, Civic back to drawing board
 

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/26/report-...-lighter-ne/#at

The Civic is too big and heavy says the boss.

I would have to agree with the boss, the Civic is too big, but I think the Accord is as well.

Aren't most cars these days gained a bit of girth compared to their older counterparts? Are we going back to the late 90's Civic, in size?

I sure hope so.

There's a bit of girth, then there's the fact that the Civic is technically mid sized it so big, and the Accord is technically full sized. The cars have outgrown their classes, so they have to get smaller. Still, this indicates smaller cars based on the Civic platform as well.

Only the Accord LX is full-size (no sunroof) and only then, just barely. Every other Accord is a mid-size car.

The Civic has a ton of interior room for its size but it's abundantly clear that it's not a true mid-size when you start trying to fit five people in it, or luggage for three. It's still nowhere near as big as an Accord, inside or out.

I like what Honda is doing (smaller, lighter) but honestly, they have the Fit to cover that market. I'd prefer they just keep the Civic as is but give it more power and more fuel efficiency while reducing the road noise. Refine it, don't redefine it. It doesn't weigh much already - just put some money into making it a better car to drive all the time.

Yes, they are too big.

Civic should be no longer than 174" and no wider than 67" and weights less than 2600lbs.

Accord should be no longer than 186" and no wider than 71" and weight less than 3100lbs.

Will the new, smaller Civic cannibalize sales from the Fit? :ponder:

Here's another route they could have taken - continued the existing Civic development efforts, just slap an "Accord" badge on it. Take the existing Fit, and slap a "Civic" badge on it. Take the current Accord platform and continue its use in other models.

Its because the average consumer is stupid. They always expect more in a new model. And the easiest and cheapest way to give them more is to give them more space. Then the manufacturers need to come up with new models after a few generations of expanding girth. To fill the old market of the original car.

i can't think of any case that the newer model is actually smaller than the previous generation... wonder how buyers would perceive this?...
i think psychologically the larger car worth more $$ even if it cost the same as the smaller one.
anyone agrees with me?

In terms of size and practicality, I think the modern Civics have replaced the old Accords and the Fit has replaced the old Civics. Heck, the CR-Z four seater could be considered a replacement of the EF/EG Civics. I guess if they do shrink it back, there wouldn't be this "a replaces b and b replaces c in 10 years" and everything will be what they were intended for.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a smaller CR-Z

People are getting fatter.

The 370Z is smaller than the 350Z.

I hope they do make the Civic smaller. Driving an FA5....it felt too big to be a Civic.

[QUOTE=Crazy_Schizo,Oct 28 2009, 04:58 AM]

I hope they do make the Civic smaller.

So does the effect the delivery schedule of the aforementioned models, or is Honda just gonna have to work double-time?

IMHO:
The going back to the drawing board on the Civic is not going to alter the CRZ's launch. Honda UK has the release date on their web site as Summer '10.

NBo, not this gen - it effects the Civic currently under dev, and all cars tied to its platforms, so it would be the future CR-Z that would be smaller.

They need a 44oz cup holder and a big mac tray.

Good for them. While I fear the beancounters reign of terror over at Honda, for once this is a good call-- the new Civic should certinaly be no bigger than the current one. If it's headed that way they need to stop and rethink.

Gotta give them credit, redesigning the Civic is no easy task. The car has been a class leader for how long? Two decades+? Basically the only way for them to go is down, unless they keep nailing it like they've been doing. expectations.

It's probably more related to the matter that to have decent performance in its class while providing good/improving fuel economy, either new technology will have to be discovered and implemented cost effectively almost immediately, or the car is going to have to be reduced in size.

That would be nice. :thumbup:

Why? When you can get a Fit today that's smaller than a '99 Civic? With more interior room, same weight, and only 10 hp less?

I mean, I can certainly understand the concept of the Civic being too big these days - I was at a light with a new Si behind a Cayman and it made the Cayman look tiny. New Civics dwarf my S2000. But why bother with making the Civic smaller when Honda already has a car smaller than the Civic - the Fit?

My thoughts exactly. Hold the dimensions, make it lighter, make it quieter on the highway, and give it more refinement without making it boring. Oh, and make it more fuel efficient.

On that last point, I got 42.77 mpg (actual measurement) in our 2008 Civic with the 5AT over 160 miles of pure highway driving with an average of 2.5 people in the car (two going, three coming back) in mid-October. On two trips just prior that I got 40.7 and 41.7 mpg on trips of 200+ miles that required the use of A/C and had more passengers. That's impressive for a car that cost under $17K (before TTL), seats four with ease, and has been bulletproof reliable (just oil changes and tire rotations) over the first 30K miles.

Corvette

maybe that IS what they're doing, but they've told journalists that they've "restarted". =D

its about time SOMEONE started reversing the growing trend of automobiles! not surprised its a japanese company, they dont have an obesity epidemic over there!

"........chief Tsuneo Tanai who observed a rise in oil and raw metal prices...........Tanai ordered his engineers and designers to scrap their plans and redesign the next-gen Civic to be smaller, cheaper, lighter and more fuel efficient."

SPORTIER TOO, please.


:iagree:


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


This is what I've been asking for the past couple years. I knew Honda would come back. :heart: :tipwink:

WOW, just about everybody wants smaller. lighter, more mpg, sportier cars here. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I think those numbers are largely unrealistic. Not flaming you or anything, but expecting a Civic to weigh less than an S2000 is just madness really. Just because they are saying it is too big doesn't mean they want to make it smaller for performance gains in the same realm of a sports car.

Also, the specs for the Accord you listed would be a HUGE turn off. Remember the Accord is a full sized car. Hell, a midsized car is going to weight more than 3100 easily. If they scaled things back that much, they would be turning off a lot of new buyers. Honda needs to remain competitive, and producing a new Accord that weighs 3000 pounds would launch Honda into a niche market that encompasses maybe 3 or 4 buyers.

The curb weight of my 97 Civic EX is listed @ 2700lbs

How is that madness ?

Expectations for features and safety have gone up hugely in the past decade. A short list of features that less common in economy cars in 1997 that are commonly expected today (in my best guess at decreasing order of weight addition):

• Much greater expectation for refinement (quietness, isolation from the outside, etc.)
• Much greater chassis stiffness
• More airbags than you can shake a stick at
• 16"+ wheels
• Automatic transmission :(
• More gears in the transmission
• ABS
• Traction control
• Stability control
• Rear disc brakes
• Navigation

My wife's 2008 Civic Sedan LX with 5AT weighs 2754 lbs. A 2009 S2000 is listed at 2864 lbs on Honda's site. Even the CR weighs more at 2765 lbs. ;)

They should have no problem keeping the Civic under 2800 lbs.

they should but it's not as easy as keeping a sport car lighter(370z)

the have a much small budget cap, which will limits their material choice(composite, aluminium,etc) and manufacturing process(hydroform, unibody, etc)

of course the next civic doesn't need the rigidity of the 370z but being just guessing the direction honda goes, those emission and safety will add more lbs to the chassis

if you ask me, yes, the new civic looks big and drives big too.

They're already at a low weight and they're not planning on expanding the size of the car. Ergo, it should be roughly the same weight, give or take a few pounds. The car already has 5-star crash ratings so they won't have to kill themselves to make it meet standards it already meets.

I'd argue that it's tougher to keep a sports car light because you inevitably want more power, more speed, and more grip. All of those require more strength in the car and that's tough to do without adding weight or adding cost.