I don’t agree with that at all. I’ve heard the same crap for 20 years riding my local twisties or driving them. No accidents, no tickets. Now some foreign turf where I don’t know the roads, sure, I’d agree, but not hometown advantage, sorry. I’ve spent my fair time and money at tracks, local and out of state. 4 wheels and 2. I’m sure I could get faster doing more laps per year but I’ve learned the bulk of what there is to learn. I took that knowledge, change the pace, and adapted it all to my rural twisty roads. I never pushed 10/10ths at the track either. More like 8/10 and maybe I’m really feeling the bike that day and I go to 9/10 but it isn’t sustained all day like that. More like a single session where I’m on it.

On the road, probably 7 in sections, all corners, straights, most of the time 5. But I have more fun in my twisties than I do at the track. I know the roads by the back of my hands, and know when to use those roads and when not to. Holiday weekends, out. Too early when animals are moving, out. At dusk, out. I’ve managed to ride/drive them for 2 decades, at what we call the P.A.C.E and have a blast. The track is great but I am tired of having to go out of town, get up at 6am for 7am check in, etc, on my day off. Fees have gone up too. I like the B road action much more and will continue to do it. And do it safely. I’ve done trackdays that were more dangerous to me and my equipment than the twisties. Because Johnny RaceCar is on that track driving like a complete ass, or wannabe Marquez is ignoring session rules and pushing himself and his bike way past his abilities to the point of getting that spidey sense when Holmes is around, backing off down the straight to create a huge 1/2 lap gap to the asshole then seeing him later with blood visible and his bike wadded completely up. Seen the helo a few times carting someone off to the hospital. Some track days everyone is cool, cordial, fun times. Other times, there are ass holes there with a chip on their shoulder and they are a danger to everyone they are around.

You don’t know anything unless you’ve hit those roads, seen how safe someone is, etc. That fat bald dude that reviews cars routinely hits the same canyons roads and knows them well. He knows when they are working on them, when to go when it isn’t busy, etc. Many of us do the exact same shit with out local roads. My twisties are not Deals Gap or the Dragon and don’t attract people from out of state or even out of the area. I have had days where I’m on my favorite road and come across an ambulance and a cop car. Always a big group ride of like 15-20 dudes, young guys, without the experience and one of them pushed too hard and yard saled. Last time I saw that I crept through there in first and just shook my head at all of them. Assholes doing stupid shit and drawing attention to the area which will bring a Police presence. Even then I run radar and pick them off. You have to have self control, know when you can push and when you can’t. It’s not for everyone as everyone doesn’t have self control or the skills to pay the bills.

Not hearing the blanket crap.

 

I appreciate canyon driving and track driving as two completely different disciplines with different purposes in mind.

Track driving is where you can push to the ragged edge, go 10/10ths, and really explore the limits with a much higher probability of a non-incident should you lose control. This is where you figure it out and chase lap times and numbers. There should be a mandatory 3-4 track days showing competency before canyon driving should be allowed.

Canyon driving is for a different experience where you drive 6-7/10ths at most. You shouldn't be on the ragged edge. You should be cruising and leaving a lot more room on the table for the ton of other unexpected variables that you'll encounter in this environment. You aren't chasing lap times or trying to prove anything. The experience and intent is completely different, and the sense of enjoyment received targets different pleasure circuits in the brain than track driving (and some of the same ones too). It should be treated as a far more dangerous environment than track driving.

It's a completely different mindset regarding the approach for canyon and track driving. I'll go on canyon drives and appreciate them for what they are. I'm cruising - I don't have anyone chasing me, but if there is someone, I let them go immediately. Not looking to compete or prove anything. Track driving is where I chase "goals". I have a 80/20 preference for track driving. I like driving on the ragged edge and "chasing" things....

 

Was just talking today about this with my wife. I drove way too fast when I got my s2k 3years ago. I was driving like I did back in my 20’s. I’m realizing that if I want to keep this car long term that I can still drive it hard and enjoy it but keep well within limits. I have way more at risk now from 30 years ago and nothing to prove. Still amazes me hitting curves with a sign that says “35mph” and I’m going in at 60mph and feels completely in control and like I could push it more.

 

I consider track races, or any controlled sanction competitive racing, to be like a match where wins/losses are recorded, then HPDE I suppose is like sparring, and canyon driving is like hitting the bag, shadow boxing, drilling with a partner, light sparring, etc.

There's alot that doesn't translate to the track, like the fact that there's literally a painted line on the ground, oftentimes in bright yellow, two of them in fact, that you're supposed to follow. And normally on a track, you can see around the corner, where in the canyons oftentimes you can't see around the corner, let alone there's no one there spotting.

 

So what exactly is it you don't agree with?! You run max 7/10ths on your known twisties, and usually 5/10ths. That's reasonable, about same for me on the street, my fave well-known twisty bits with no side-streets, 7/10ths max, usually 5/10ths. This is not "pushing it".
At the track, in the car I'm at 10/10ths by the end of my outlap and pretty much stay there (sometimes slightly under, sometimes slightly over) unless I need to conserve tires. When I was racing the motorcycle (only 2 1/2 years), I was more like 8 to 9/10ths, occasionally 10/10ths at the track but not sustained...

But yeah, I'd never go over 7/10ths on the street car or bike, there's just no reason to as the real joy is *at* the limit at 10/10ths and that's just stupid on the street, anything between 7/10ths and 9/10ths isn't on the limit, just greatly diminishing margin for error. Over 7/10ths and yeah, I'm in total agreement with @engifineer , "take it to the track"!

 

My second trip up there back 2012 I through I had the correct setup for that kind of twisty mountain driving. Boy! was I so wrong with that. Over drove my 2006 S2K right off the road, Luckily I went up the hill and not down. I knew then it was needing good seat time at a track to learn the car. I quickly learned that I would never get to the S2K's full capabilities. I did however the learn it to my capability. Some say you drive the car fast but I stay within my limits. First thing people should understand its not track or race. It don't take two hundredths of a second for the freaking world to turn upside down up in the mountains. I've seen 11 S2K's total in my trips to the great place. First rule keep you ego at the hotel. Second rule stay within your limits. Third rule the guy in front of me has the same car so I should be able to keep up. Always remember you want to go home the way you got there in one piece both you and car. I do remember seeing your group of cars when we finished our rollout. One S2000 in group didn't make it back to Fontana and he was chasing a sport bike back to Deals and over corrected into a tree. Again the driver was ok but not this car.

 

Lol the extreme overblown ego's on here sometimes. Still dumb to drive that way on the street. I don't care how good you think you are or how well you know that road, you do not know the other people on said road and they are not out there looking around for johnny race car driver to come by. Your "skill" has no bearing on what those other random drivers are doing. I did not get cancer from smoking for 10 years when I was younger, did not get diabetes from living on sugary drinks either. But guess what? I dont smoke, work out and eat healthy now. I really do not care how many times you got away with doing something stupid. I could probably fill a book full of those things. Does not make them good decisions. Not saying I do not enjoy a twisty road and I do not drive like Im driving miss daisy either, but not going to to full out on public roads when I can simply do it better and more relaxed on the track. And man, how must it feel to be so awesome to have "learned the bulk of what there is to know" lol

 

You’re the one with the ego. You throw out blanket statements and apply them to all like you are God.

How would you know what traffic is or isn’t on roads you have never driven in your life and never will? I know where I do this the traffic is nil. I’m doing zero “unsafe” driving or riding around other motorists. It was already stated none of us are going “full out” but I guess reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit.

Save the lectures to some youngsters or something. I’m older than you, being doing this longer than you, and don’t need to listen to someone tell me anything about an area or roads they have never driven and never will drive their entire life. You just got done admitting you are driving slow but not going full out either. I’m quite sure I said the same above and have to read this. What a joke.