Canyon carving comparison: Fiata 124 Spider Abarth vs AP2 Honda S2000
03-15-2017, 04:19 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Canyon carving comparison: Fiata 124 Spider Abarth vs AP2 Honda S2000
Today I took a test drive in a car that I've been meaning to take for a spin for a while: the new Fiat 124 Spider Abarth 6MT, aka the “Fiata”. I drove it back to back with my AP2 2007 Honda S2000, taking them both down Deer Creek Canyon for a friendly comparison.
**Disclaimers: I'm in the Denver, CO area, so high elevation (~5200 ft). Also, during the Fiat test drive, I had a salesman in the car; whereas I drove the S2000 alone, so the S2000 had a slight power to weight ratio advantage. **
In this review, I'm not going to cover aesthetics. You know what these cars look like and it's all subjective anyway.
Getting inside both cars, it becomes obvious that the S2000 is a larger car. I say that because it felt like the S2000 had slightly more room in just about every direction. My 6'2” 210 lbs frame fits snugly into the S2000, whereas I felt like the Fiata lost about ~1/2” or more in just about every direction. I still fit just fine, but the Honda better suits my frame; even if they're both fairly small cars.
For the record, the Fiata has more adjustability- tilt steering, tilting seat bottom, etc; but for someone my size, I already know the drill for small cars: put the seat as low as it will go, tilt the seat back to an acceptable angle and slide her back until it won't slide anymore. In this configuration, the S2000 was a bit roomier. YMMV.
The Fiata benefits from a newer/more modern interior, with several features that weren't available to cars in ~2007 (touch screen/infotainment, etc); but in the area of fit/finish and materials, they're actually pretty close. Both use a plethora of higher grade materials and have logically laid out interiors. Although I have a complaint about the Fiata's gauges- they have a red background that makes it difficult to see where the “redline” is at a glance when revving the car out/driving quickly. By contrast, the Honda's digital tach indicates it's redline very clearly when pushing it on a back road.
The base seats in the Fiata aren't bad at all, but I probably prefer the S2000's by a small margin, just due to the way the bolstering is shaped. With that said, I also sat in a Fiata that had the optional Recaro seats on the showroom floor and they felt excellent! The Recaro's seemed to have the perfect amount of bolstering and seemed to also allow the driver head to sit just a bit further away from the windshield. Or maybe it just felt that way? Regardless, if I was ordering one of these cars, I would spec it with the Recaro's without a thinking twice.
These 2 cars have very different engines, with very different characteristics. The S2000's 2.2L NA I4 doesn't have a bunch of low/mid-range torque, but it screams to it's 8200rpm redline, pulling harder and harder the more you rev it out.
The Fiata on the other hand has a small 1.4L SOHC turbo I4. There's a bit of old school turbo lag with this engine, but nothing you can't avoid if you're willing to stir the stick shift a bit. Although it really runs out of steam above ~5500rpm. The small turbo and SOHC head are really noticeable if you're trying to rev this motor out. The little 1.4L makes pretty decent mid-range punch, and at this elevation, it certainly felt a bit quicker than the last ND Miata I drove... but it has a pretty narrow powerband: between 3500-5500rpm it's fairly peppy, but above or below there, I was not impressed.
I think the Fiata's engine would be pretty decent as a semi-daily driven car. It's been a while since I drove the ND Miata, but the extra mid-range of the Fiata was definitely appreciated. With that said, when pushing this car back to back with the S2000 in the canyons, it's not even close. The Honda felt noticeably faster and revving it out, the S2000's F22C engine was far more rewarding; mostly due to the constantly rising/more linear powerband and of course the high RPM VTEC howl! At idle, the Abarth has a nice, low growl to it that really contrasts with it's small displacement; but up high, it's not even close, the S2000 sounds far more racy and aggressive.
The transmission in the Fiata is NOT the same unit that's in the new ND Miata. Some reviews say they still feel similar. I say those reviewers are full of ****. The ND Miata's more “fragile” new gearbox certainly feels smoother than the Fiata's unit that came out of the last generation NC Miata.
The shifts in the Fiata are short and relatively direct, but in comparison to the ND Miata and my S2000, the Fiata feels notchy and a bit heavier. I prefer the feel in the ND and I prefer the S2000's shifter over both of them. This isn't to say the shifter in the Fiata is bad by any means; it's actually pretty good. The problem is, the ND's shifter is better and the S2000's is actually the best feeling shifter of any car I've ever driven, at any price. The Fiata is just up against very stiff competition.
Both cars have relatively soft/easy to use clutches, but they have very different catch points. The S2000's clutch is probably a bit softer, but they engage differently. Due to that fact, I almost stalled the Fiata a couple of times. It wasn't the car's fault at all, it just felt very different than both of the manual cars I drive regularly (MK7 Golf R & S2000).
For the record, the Fiata I drove didn't have the optional Brembo brakes. I was actually a bit shocked that the “Abarth” version didn't come standard with things like the bigger brakes and Recaro seats. With that said, the brakes seemed fine and were up to the task of spirited canyon driving. I leaned on them a bit during a steep downhill section, and didn't notice any signs of fade. They seemed perfectly adequate, but I remember being more impressed with the last Brembo equipped ND Miata I drove, at least in regards to pedal feel and response.
I feel I have to give another disclaimer: my S2000 has ATE Typ 200 brake fluid, going through a set of stainless steel braided lines. I felt like the S2000's brakes were just a bit more responsive, but the fluid and lines might have been a contributing factor.
Both cars have pedal positions that make heel/toe shifting an easy proposition, but the smoother shifter and more responsive NA engine in the S2000 give it an edge here.
One thing I find interesting is that the S2000 definitely feels like it has a stiffer/flatter suspension, but that doesn't translate into a harsh ride, as the Honda's chassis does a good job of soaking up road imperfections.
If you fit inside the Fiata comfortably, I could certainly see a person taking it on a road trip, as it's actually pretty smooth and cruised on the freeway with the greatest of ease. The Abarth package certainly didn't spoil the Fiata's road manners.
Pushing both cars through the canyons, they feel like very different machines. The S2000 has a slightly more rearward weight bias (49/51% F/R vs 54/46% F/R for the Fiata) and you can feel it. The Honda rotates more quickly and is more rewarding when you get it right.
The Fiata certainly has more body roll, but it's very controlled. I felt like it had less roll than the last ND Miata Club I drove, but it still maintains the same character: turn-in, wait a split second for the weight to transfer to the outside wheels and ride the corner out on the bump-stops. It's not harsh or violent, and actually transitions pretty smoothly. By contrast, the S2000 stays considerably flatter, making turn-in more immediate and giving it more of a “race car” feel.
In the Fiata, you can feel the extra weight in the nose of the car when you start to push it. I didn't hit the limits of the tires, but unless you're on the throttle, it feels more like the front wants to wash out; whereas the S2000 has a rear end that is more eager to follow. The Fiata feels very confidence inspiring and forgiving; but it can't match the S2000 when it comes to fun factor or how rewarding it is when pushed hard.
The Fiata has a ~400 lbs weight advantage over the S2000, but I didn't hardly notice it. To be honest, the ND Miata had more of a lively, lightweight feel to it; whereas I think the extra weight in the nose of the Fiata (due to cast iron block, turbo plumbing, etc) took away from some of the super-light car feel.
I think the Fiata's steering is just a smidgen heavier than the S2000's, and both cars had decent feel for having electric-powered steering racks; but the thicker rimmed steering wheel in the Fiata felt better in my hands. Makes me consider getting a new wheel for the S2000!
Putting everything together, the Fiata felt like a nice, peppy, fun weekend car. I really enjoyed driving it and think it's a good alternative to the ND Miata, especially at high elevation, where the turbo helps you get up to speed.
But I would never consider trading my S2000 in on one. For driving back and forth to work, or cruising to weekend getaway spots, the Fiata makes a very interesting proposition, but when you start pushing it in the canyons, it cannot match the driver involvement that the S2000 has to offer. The Honda feels faster, the motor is more engaging/makes better noises, it has better throttle response, a smoother shifter, considerably less body roll, it's more eager to rotate and when you get it right, it's almost impossible to wipe the grin off of your face!
I would have no problem recommending the Fiata to friends and associates; but the S2000 won't be leaving my garage anytime soon.
**Disclaimers: I'm in the Denver, CO area, so high elevation (~5200 ft). Also, during the Fiat test drive, I had a salesman in the car; whereas I drove the S2000 alone, so the S2000 had a slight power to weight ratio advantage. **
In this review, I'm not going to cover aesthetics. You know what these cars look like and it's all subjective anyway.
Getting inside both cars, it becomes obvious that the S2000 is a larger car. I say that because it felt like the S2000 had slightly more room in just about every direction. My 6'2” 210 lbs frame fits snugly into the S2000, whereas I felt like the Fiata lost about ~1/2” or more in just about every direction. I still fit just fine, but the Honda better suits my frame; even if they're both fairly small cars.
For the record, the Fiata has more adjustability- tilt steering, tilting seat bottom, etc; but for someone my size, I already know the drill for small cars: put the seat as low as it will go, tilt the seat back to an acceptable angle and slide her back until it won't slide anymore. In this configuration, the S2000 was a bit roomier. YMMV.
The Fiata benefits from a newer/more modern interior, with several features that weren't available to cars in ~2007 (touch screen/infotainment, etc); but in the area of fit/finish and materials, they're actually pretty close. Both use a plethora of higher grade materials and have logically laid out interiors. Although I have a complaint about the Fiata's gauges- they have a red background that makes it difficult to see where the “redline” is at a glance when revving the car out/driving quickly. By contrast, the Honda's digital tach indicates it's redline very clearly when pushing it on a back road.
The base seats in the Fiata aren't bad at all, but I probably prefer the S2000's by a small margin, just due to the way the bolstering is shaped. With that said, I also sat in a Fiata that had the optional Recaro seats on the showroom floor and they felt excellent! The Recaro's seemed to have the perfect amount of bolstering and seemed to also allow the driver head to sit just a bit further away from the windshield. Or maybe it just felt that way? Regardless, if I was ordering one of these cars, I would spec it with the Recaro's without a thinking twice.
These 2 cars have very different engines, with very different characteristics. The S2000's 2.2L NA I4 doesn't have a bunch of low/mid-range torque, but it screams to it's 8200rpm redline, pulling harder and harder the more you rev it out.
The Fiata on the other hand has a small 1.4L SOHC turbo I4. There's a bit of old school turbo lag with this engine, but nothing you can't avoid if you're willing to stir the stick shift a bit. Although it really runs out of steam above ~5500rpm. The small turbo and SOHC head are really noticeable if you're trying to rev this motor out. The little 1.4L makes pretty decent mid-range punch, and at this elevation, it certainly felt a bit quicker than the last ND Miata I drove... but it has a pretty narrow powerband: between 3500-5500rpm it's fairly peppy, but above or below there, I was not impressed.
I think the Fiata's engine would be pretty decent as a semi-daily driven car. It's been a while since I drove the ND Miata, but the extra mid-range of the Fiata was definitely appreciated. With that said, when pushing this car back to back with the S2000 in the canyons, it's not even close. The Honda felt noticeably faster and revving it out, the S2000's F22C engine was far more rewarding; mostly due to the constantly rising/more linear powerband and of course the high RPM VTEC howl! At idle, the Abarth has a nice, low growl to it that really contrasts with it's small displacement; but up high, it's not even close, the S2000 sounds far more racy and aggressive.
The transmission in the Fiata is NOT the same unit that's in the new ND Miata. Some reviews say they still feel similar. I say those reviewers are full of ****. The ND Miata's more “fragile” new gearbox certainly feels smoother than the Fiata's unit that came out of the last generation NC Miata.
The shifts in the Fiata are short and relatively direct, but in comparison to the ND Miata and my S2000, the Fiata feels notchy and a bit heavier. I prefer the feel in the ND and I prefer the S2000's shifter over both of them. This isn't to say the shifter in the Fiata is bad by any means; it's actually pretty good. The problem is, the ND's shifter is better and the S2000's is actually the best feeling shifter of any car I've ever driven, at any price. The Fiata is just up against very stiff competition.
Both cars have relatively soft/easy to use clutches, but they have very different catch points. The S2000's clutch is probably a bit softer, but they engage differently. Due to that fact, I almost stalled the Fiata a couple of times. It wasn't the car's fault at all, it just felt very different than both of the manual cars I drive regularly (MK7 Golf R & S2000).
For the record, the Fiata I drove didn't have the optional Brembo brakes. I was actually a bit shocked that the “Abarth” version didn't come standard with things like the bigger brakes and Recaro seats. With that said, the brakes seemed fine and were up to the task of spirited canyon driving. I leaned on them a bit during a steep downhill section, and didn't notice any signs of fade. They seemed perfectly adequate, but I remember being more impressed with the last Brembo equipped ND Miata I drove, at least in regards to pedal feel and response.
I feel I have to give another disclaimer: my S2000 has ATE Typ 200 brake fluid, going through a set of stainless steel braided lines. I felt like the S2000's brakes were just a bit more responsive, but the fluid and lines might have been a contributing factor.
Both cars have pedal positions that make heel/toe shifting an easy proposition, but the smoother shifter and more responsive NA engine in the S2000 give it an edge here.
One thing I find interesting is that the S2000 definitely feels like it has a stiffer/flatter suspension, but that doesn't translate into a harsh ride, as the Honda's chassis does a good job of soaking up road imperfections.
If you fit inside the Fiata comfortably, I could certainly see a person taking it on a road trip, as it's actually pretty smooth and cruised on the freeway with the greatest of ease. The Abarth package certainly didn't spoil the Fiata's road manners.
Pushing both cars through the canyons, they feel like very different machines. The S2000 has a slightly more rearward weight bias (49/51% F/R vs 54/46% F/R for the Fiata) and you can feel it. The Honda rotates more quickly and is more rewarding when you get it right.
The Fiata certainly has more body roll, but it's very controlled. I felt like it had less roll than the last ND Miata Club I drove, but it still maintains the same character: turn-in, wait a split second for the weight to transfer to the outside wheels and ride the corner out on the bump-stops. It's not harsh or violent, and actually transitions pretty smoothly. By contrast, the S2000 stays considerably flatter, making turn-in more immediate and giving it more of a “race car” feel.
In the Fiata, you can feel the extra weight in the nose of the car when you start to push it. I didn't hit the limits of the tires, but unless you're on the throttle, it feels more like the front wants to wash out; whereas the S2000 has a rear end that is more eager to follow. The Fiata feels very confidence inspiring and forgiving; but it can't match the S2000 when it comes to fun factor or how rewarding it is when pushed hard.
The Fiata has a ~400 lbs weight advantage over the S2000, but I didn't hardly notice it. To be honest, the ND Miata had more of a lively, lightweight feel to it; whereas I think the extra weight in the nose of the Fiata (due to cast iron block, turbo plumbing, etc) took away from some of the super-light car feel.
I think the Fiata's steering is just a smidgen heavier than the S2000's, and both cars had decent feel for having electric-powered steering racks; but the thicker rimmed steering wheel in the Fiata felt better in my hands. Makes me consider getting a new wheel for the S2000!
Putting everything together, the Fiata felt like a nice, peppy, fun weekend car. I really enjoyed driving it and think it's a good alternative to the ND Miata, especially at high elevation, where the turbo helps you get up to speed.
But I would never consider trading my S2000 in on one. For driving back and forth to work, or cruising to weekend getaway spots, the Fiata makes a very interesting proposition, but when you start pushing it in the canyons, it cannot match the driver involvement that the S2000 has to offer. The Honda feels faster, the motor is more engaging/makes better noises, it has better throttle response, a smoother shifter, considerably less body roll, it's more eager to rotate and when you get it right, it's almost impossible to wipe the grin off of your face!
I would have no problem recommending the Fiata to friends and associates; but the S2000 won't be leaving my garage anytime soon.
The following 3 users liked this post by arctic_blue83:
03-15-2017, 05:32 PM
#2
Nice review! 
Sounds like the Fiat has more built-in understeer, than the Miata. Maybe, a bit less vulnerable to swap ends. Esp with less experience drivers.
Sounds like the Fiat has more built-in understeer, than the Miata. Maybe, a bit less vulnerable to swap ends. Esp with less experience drivers.
03-16-2017, 08:34 AM
#3
Good review, thanks.
03-17-2017, 08:43 AM
#4
Registered User
Good Review, if not maybe a bit biased towards your own car
My brother wants one of these. He currently drives an older HEMI Dodge Charger. I tried to sell him on an S2000 since he still lives at home and only works part time but he is stuck on this idea that only brand new cars are worthwhile. Oh well, maybe ill get to test drive a Fiat 124 Abarth
Since you have driven an ND as well, which one would you have if the S2000 wasn't an option?
My brother wants one of these. He currently drives an older HEMI Dodge Charger. I tried to sell him on an S2000 since he still lives at home and only works part time but he is stuck on this idea that only brand new cars are worthwhile. Oh well, maybe ill get to test drive a Fiat 124 Abarth
Since you have driven an ND as well, which one would you have if the S2000 wasn't an option?
03-18-2017, 07:32 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Good Review, if not maybe a bit biased towards your own car
My brother wants one of these. He currently drives an older HEMI Dodge Charger. I tried to sell him on an S2000 since he still lives at home and only works part time but he is stuck on this idea that only brand new cars are worthwhile. Oh well, maybe ill get to test drive a Fiat 124 Abarth
Since you have driven an ND as well, which one would you have if the S2000 wasn't an option?
My brother wants one of these. He currently drives an older HEMI Dodge Charger. I tried to sell him on an S2000 since he still lives at home and only works part time but he is stuck on this idea that only brand new cars are worthwhile. Oh well, maybe ill get to test drive a Fiat 124 Abarth
Since you have driven an ND as well, which one would you have if the S2000 wasn't an option?
I just picked up my AP2 a few months ago. It was bone stock, garage kept, outstanding condition, only 29k miles on it. Before I bought it, I drove just about everything you can imagine in the ~$30k and under price range, including the ND Miata. Although at the time, I couldn't find a 124 Spider Abarth with a manual transmission, so I skipped it (until now). Of all the cars I took to the canyons, the only car that might have arguably been more fun [to me] than the AP2 (in the canyons) was the 987 Boxster S. I really enjoyed the P-car, but in the end, I decided that my pockets weren't quite deep enough to own a Porsche out of warranty, especially since it would see track time. I drove cars that were significantly faster than the S2000, but only the Porsche equaled the Honda for fun factor in the canyons. So, I see the Fiata as being up against stiff competition for the type of driving I enjoy.
I test drove the ND Miata back to back with the S2000 a couple of times, just to make sure I was making the right decision before I pulled the trigger. I really enjoyed the ND Miata, but after a few test drives, I knew that it would need some money invested to get it to my liking; namely I thought the ND Miata had too much body roll, and I wasn't terribly impressed with the engine, not just it's lack of power, but also the engine's lack of character. The S2000 felt like a much sportier car out of the box.
With that said, between the ND Miata and the 124 Spider, I would go with the ND Miata for a few reasons:
-Aesthetics. Petty, I know, but I prefer it over the Fiat.
-Throttle response. The 124 has better mid-range once you're in it, but it's a laggy little (1.4L) motor. The high compression/direct injection ND Miata has snappier throttle response.
-The Miata has much better turn-in and feels more lively. Keith Tanner over at Flyin' Miata put both of them on the scale, the Fiat weighs ~100 lbs more than the Miata, and it's entirely over the front axle (ND Miata= 1210 F, 1103 R. 52.3% front, 124 Spider= 1302 F, 1110 R 54.0% front). I could actually feel the extra weight over the front end on the Fiat.
-Miata has a better shifter and more intuitive clutch. I hopped into the Fiat and almost stalled it a couple times. I drove the Miata and instantly felt like I had been driving the car/clutch for years.
-I think a sports car should have an engine that likes to rev. Despite the ND Miata's lack of power, it's DOHC 2.0L is happier up top than the Fiat's SOHC 1.4L. According to the mags, the ND Miata is actually a bit quicker (at sea level) 0-60mph and in the 1/4 mile.
-[Perceived] reliability. Mazda's engines seem to have a better track record than Fiat's.
With that said, the Fiat does have a couple of things going for it:
-It uses the NC Miata transmission, which is more robust than the ND's. I know Mazda made some revisions to the ND's transmission in ~September 2016, but thus far, the ND's gearbox has been seen as "fragile" to say the least. Lots of them have been broken already.
-Port injection = no problems with long term carbon build-up.
Turbo cars also generally respond to mods a bit better... but there's a problem: apparently no one has been able to reflash the Fiat's ECU in order to gain more [peak] power. There are a few companies claiming they can tune the Fiat's ECU for more power, but according to all the big Miata tuners (FM, Goodwin, etc), whenever they reflashed the 124 Spider, they could not replicate any gains on their dynos. Apparently the post-2012 Fiat 500 Abarth has the same issue. FM mentioned that the ECU compensates for mods as well; they said they removed the intake/exhaust and with no restrictions, they still saw no gains. Kind of negates the "tune the factory boosted car" advantage; at least until someone cracks the ECU.
With that said, nice car in your avatar! My daily is a 2016 Golf R in the same color.
03-20-2017, 07:44 AM
#6
Registered User
Pretty much what I thought RE: ND vs Fiata but my lil bro, bless his heart, takes everything Richard Hammond says as gospel...
Preferring the way the ND looks is not petty, it looks amazing, especially when you take it down off it's truck suspension. I ran across this picture on a FB group the other day...droool
Preferring the way the ND looks is not petty, it looks amazing, especially when you take it down off it's truck suspension. I ran across this picture on a FB group the other day...droool
03-29-2017, 10:43 AM
#7
Registered User
The ND makes my c6 z06 feel like a land yacht in comparison; its agility was absolutely amazing. I drove an AP2 in the canyons shortly after the ND and while both have their merits the ND is my preferred handling machine. Powerplant wise of course the F2x variants are far superior than anything offered in the ND thus far. After all these years I'd still give the overall driving experience win to the S2k, it's just an incredible experience. Dammit back to Autotrader I go
Trending Topics
03-30-2017, 11:14 AM
#9
Yeah, except an Elise/Exige is useless, has a high insurance cost, isn't readily available and costs way more money than any of them...if you can find one.
03-31-2017, 07:43 AM
#10
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,852
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My '07 Exige S has been utterly reliable, is less to insure than my G wagon, has plenty enough luggage space for two for a weekend getaway - and is STILL the best bang for the buck under 100k. Oh, and it's appreciating.
A 2007 S just sold on BaT for 45k with 20k Miles. The SMART money knows to buy cars like this - instead of some POS Fiat or run of the mill Miata who's value will tank in the first three years, whilst I could sell my Exige for more than I paid two years ago.
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2007-lotus-exige-s/
It doesn't cost anything if you don't lose anything. But people are dumb.
A 2007 S just sold on BaT for 45k with 20k Miles. The SMART money knows to buy cars like this - instead of some POS Fiat or run of the mill Miata who's value will tank in the first three years, whilst I could sell my Exige for more than I paid two years ago.
http://bringatrailer.com/listing/2007-lotus-exige-s/
It doesn't cost anything if you don't lose anything. But people are dumb.
