Saki GT

Someday hybrids will make sense, but unless you're getting a fat government rebate check to go with the hybrid, its not worth the extra money today.

Bboy AJ

They are for people who care more about reducing their carbon footprint. It makes no economic sense to buy a hybrid. It does, however, make sense if you want to reduce your carbon footprint.

We've been over this debate before. There is conceivable reason for someone to purchase a hybrid.

corey415

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SATsk7Enp4g [/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3LV71XFnVc [/media]

Emergency lane change. I personally would not buy a car without stability control. All next gen Civics will come with VSA to comply with government mandates.

NFRs2000NYC

Carbon footprint my ass. The carbon it takes to produce these shitboxes is much greater than the carbon it saves. Hell, a diesel gets more MPG, takes less refining, and burns cleanly. Nickel batteries need a mine to mine it, a plant to process it, and a dump to dispose it. Stop drinking the hippie koolaid. Hybrids are not good for the environment in any way, shape, or form.......except if you're in holywood.

sahtt

My 05 civic DD just crossed 100k miles last weekend. I drive it mainly for business between major cities in Texas (Austin, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio). I drive it casually and track my mileage very carefully. I average 34 mpg with a standard deviation of 1.75mpg. I have never acheived an entire tank averaging over 38mpg but I have also never driven a full tank only on the highway that I can recall.

As far as the hybrid argument, even the most generous cost analysis scores the hybrid poorly. It is also very difficult to argue definitively that it's more environmentally friendly.

Mr.E.G.

I don't think that BBoy AJ was saying that he agrees with them or that he necessarily describes to that theory, just that that is the hybrid buyer's thought process.

Also, he is a pretty well spoken guy who brings his A game to arguments, so I you may not want to paint yourself into a corner with such incendiary and absolutist remarks.

WolfpackS2k

Only reason to even care about VSA on a CIVIC is if you're an absolutely horrible driver.

Malloric

Environmental impact on car manufacturing varies pretty widely, but it doesn't take more than a year or two for a Prius to start reducing a persons carbon foot print. Obviously that depends what your coming from... if your retiring a Expedition its less than a year. And obviously there are there are further factors that are harder to quantify. Producing those battery is pretty toxic itself, but they don't tend to put those mines in dense population centers.

Bboy AJ

"So, is hybrid car production pollution really a big deal? This topic actually caught the attention of the media and the public in 2007, when CNW Marketing Research, Inc. issued a report called "Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal." The paper claimed to calculate a dollar value for all of the energy necessary to create, build operate and dispose of a vehicle, and it made the surprising claim that the Toyota Prius costs more over the course of its lifetime than a Hummer H3. This, of course, confused and dismayed Prius drivers, since Toyota emphasized fuel efficiency and eco-friendly driving while marketing the hybrid to them.

After blogs and online newspapers began citing the paper and spreading its information around, several publications quickly criticized the findings from CNW for poor analysis and lack of peer review. While "Dust to Dust" claimed that most of the energy used by a vehicle came from its design and production, several other studies have found that 80 to 90 percent of a vehicle's energy is used during operation -- in other words, when you're driving it [source: Gleick].

At the very most, it takes 13 percent of the vehicle's lifetime energy to actually produce the car, whether it's a hybrid or a Hummer, and most carmakers are finding ways to reduce their environmental impact during the design and production phase by replacing hazardous substances like lead and hexavalent chromium with more sustainable materials."

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficie...n.htm/printable

Now the study has been well discredited in a paper titled "Hummer versus Prius: 'Dust to Dust' Report Misleads the Media and Public with Bad Science" (PDF) by Dr. Peter H. Gleick of the Pacific Institute. Dr. Gleick's paper pokes holes in the original study, pointing out its poor assumptions such as the usable life of a Hummer H1 (35 years) versus the life of a Prius (11) years. The original study also based its conclusions on the lifetime miles of a Prius versus a Hummer H1, where it assumed 109,000 miles versus 379,000 miles, respectively. The 109,000 mile figure for the Prius is truly bizarre, as many people have documented their Priuses getting well over this number.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9750840-1.html

So we'll work off the assumption that the hybrids do create more carbon during their creation. If 80%-90% of the vehicle's energy is used after production, and 13% of the vehicle's total energy is used to produce the car, you can see the total carbon savings over the lifetime of a vehicle. Also consider that these cars likely have a 10+ year life. Admittedly, I don't know how much more carbon hybrids create during production than other cars, if they do at all. If that amount, x, is huge, the carbon savings will never be realized and your position wins.

Regarding the battery manufacturing process, we'll use Toyota since I know for sure they're big on this.

To encourage battery recycling, dealers are paid a US$200 fee for return of the car's batteries.[110] Toyota has laboratory reports that some Prius battery packs have lasted the equivalent of 180,000 miles (290,000 km).[105] As the cars start to age, early reports have shown that in at least some cases the batteries can last in excess of 250,000 miles (400,000 km).[111]

The sources are on the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

Basically, what all this says is that your answer isn't as clear as you'd like to think it is. The definite answer isn't here just yet but it seems like environmental benefits are probable.

Also this.

Now, let this post be the definitive reply to a poster's Dust to Dust reference.

omairtheman1

I rented a Camry Hybrid and boy was that a fun car. I really gave it the beans and still got 27 mpg. I think its worth the price premium for the amount of car you will be getting and can probably get a better deal on them now then ever before...