Bboy AJ

[QUOTE=Jakup,Apr 24 2010, 02:32 AM] Certainly most or all FWD production cars will feel inadequate after driving an S2K, but this has a lot less to do with them being FWD than all the other factors I mentioned.

wraith5

You know, this theory is probably not too far off from how the Acura ZDX was created. There were years of rumors about a Acura working on an upscale RWD/SH-AWD coupe. But the end result was the 'coupe on stilts' ZDX for a much older crowd.

Mr.E.G.

mic_crispy

or, you could buy a used s2k, which is proven, has more HP, and plenty of aftermarket, all while saving 10+k.


i just dont get the point of releasing a 200hp 2800lbs for 27k when cars like the civic Si get so much flak for having low HP...

AND IM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE FWD > RWD. IVE OWNED ALL. I KNOW RWD IS BETTER. im just making a point from a numbers / power to weight standpoint. 99% of consumers are going to jump on a 8k less si, or SAME PRICED mustang with 300hp.


And Ive owned fwd, rwd, and awd. Ive taken them to the track. Ive taken them to the mountains. I do know the difference. im just making a point from numbers. They should have given this car 240hp, and 23k. i dont think thats too unrealistic. I mean, a 23k MS3 has 260hp... a 29k 370z has 330hp...

speaking of, if its no big deal to pay 5k more for rwd (vs the Si), why not spend 2k more for a 370z? or 3k more for a EVO X? Then youre in used Lotus territory....

The car makes some sense, the price point does not.

ZDan

I *have* a used S2k! Which I love. But I bought it in spite of its being a roadster rather than because of it. I'd rather have a closed coupe. The wind noise is tiresome for my highway commute and for long trips. And I wouldn't mind some hatch and +2 utility, either.

For those who want more horsepower for the same money, or who are OK with the power and weight but don't mind fwd and wanna save thousands of $$$$, sure there are other cars that fill the bill better for them.

Some of us just want a semi-reasonably priced rwd/irs car that weighs less than 3000 lb. and has at least halfway-decent power.

I don't think it's too unreasonable, either. But then I don't think it would be unreasonable for *some* manufacturer to produce a whole lineup of smallish, lightweightish rwd/irs cars including: minimalist 2-seat sports car, 2+2 coupe/hatch, 4-door sedan, and 5-door hatch/wagon. But instead all we get are monsters, big on power but big on weight and big on cost as well.

For the first time in a LONG time, it looks like we're at least getting *something* pretty cool in rwd/irs at the lower end of the size/cost/weight spectrum, so I can't help but be at least a *little* encouraged.

370Z = too heavy and too damn bluff/bulky looking.
EVO = too heavy, prefer rwd to awd.
Used Lotus, I'm considering... But there's a tremendous loss of utility vs. the S where I wouldn't mind gaining some. But then we do have the wife's Mazda3 5-door for that...

There is no new car on the market with a price point that works for me.
If something dramatic happens and somehow it gets more than 240 hp and weighs less than 2800 lb. and costs $25k, I'll buy one brand new. If it comes in with 200hp and is 2800-3000 lb., I'll wait a year or two and buy used.

TheDonEffect

Zdan, you completely missed my point, but I'll address them accordingly.
You may not need it to break new ground, but a good number of us do, I'm not talking about you and clearly what I think doesn't and shouldn't affect what you look for in a car. If it is a modern 240sx, then it will fail sales-wise like the s14 did, thus going back to my point of if it's only going to bring 200ish hp and weigh close to 3000lbs, what's the point? The S14 sales were gobbled up by the integs, preludes, and dsms of the day with alot of the sales going to nonenthusiasts. And the enthusiasts that did get it? Engine swaps and turbo kits. The KA engine didnt start catching on until a few years ago, and when it did people were more interested in boosting it. When we're talking abotu cars that weigh a good amount over 2500lbs, power becomes a bigger and bigger component in the fun equation.
What I mean about the fwd rwd argument was this: people always say that rwd>fwd in performance, like on the track. What I was saying is that at 200hp, it's a moot point since there are a lot of capable, if not superior fwd cars in that power category. And don't bring in something as extreme as an elise to be a counterargument.
And I dunno if you were arguing this or not, but my post did say that a rwd civic si would cost more. And cost wasn't the far and away reason why manufacturers made the switch, it was one of the major reasons why, but not far and away. FF cars have a more compact drivetrain, which in turn allows a designed to maximize interior space, which keeps cars smaller and lighter. Also, fwd is a safer platform for the general public over rwd. But rwd can be as cost effective when you factor economies of scale, keep in mind most truck drivetrains are rwd oriented, but I digress.

But we both agree we would buy a rwd civic si, and yeah I'd pay a little bit more of a premium too, 2500 seems reasonable. So the counterargument would be well the ft86 will be about that, i mean an si is what, 20K or so, so with the rwd premium 22500-24000 ish, thing is that I have faith in honda chassises and I love the k20, an NA subaru flat four doesn't get me going and toyota typically makes either stale or meh sporty cars (corolla XRS, celica gts when you compare it to the rsx, MRS) or expensive knockouts (think sw20 mr2, supra, all trac celica, and LFA). Bargain and awesome Toyota? I'm still holding my breath.

Onehots2k

OMG. S2ki has a facebook "like" button now..haha The world is coming to an end. O/T, I know.

ShocK

Lets face it, Toyota doesnt care about making anything fast that doesnt have a Lexus badge on it, otherwise they can't charge out the ass for it. A 2004 Celica GTS with 180hp would run you a ridiculous $27k with the nice stereo and TRD body kit. $27k is a ridiculous price for a car with that weak of an engine, and the oil pumps failed if you even tried to do anything like autocross them. I am speaking from experience, yes I was stupid, I plopped down $27k for a 180hp turd of a car. I do miss it though, it only weighed 2500 lbs and was pretty quick in the turns. but the chassis wasn't as good as the S2k and the power was terrible, even with $7k worth of bolt ons the car only managed a 14.6 in the 1/4 mile. And after 2 years of autocross and only 30k miles the oil pump failed, locked up, made the timing chain fall off and bent 4 valves. Toyota sports cars will always be under powered and over priced. The death of the supra was the death of the sports car genre for Toyota. I mean they try and put an S badge on stuff, like the Corolla S, what a pos.

FT-86 at 3000lbs with 250hp would be a decent start, make it turbo if you want to improve fuel economy, thats the route everyone else is going. There's a ton of ways to get the 27+mpg target for 2015. Will they pony up the cash and do the homework? who knows. It pisses me off they dont take the time to do chassis design to structure steel so that it is strong and make the car light as well, instead they pile sheets on top of eachother to gain strength, they're just being cheap.

prj3ctm4yh3m

so by saying "older" does that mean 350z territory? would that be that bad?

swoot

i was thinking about buying one when they came out...
but their advertising age group changed and it really is effective since now i'm not who they're trying to ad to
so im just going to get an s2k, thats why im here....

but i'll still have to wait till it comes out