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Lets talk about Z4M's...

 
Old 04-26-2010, 08:03 PM
  #111  
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[QUOTE=Dr. WOT,Apr 24 2010, 11:20 AM] As a former S2000 owner, I can finally come to terms with the fact this is an excuse we make to rationalize ill-handling cars.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. WOT,Apr 26 2010, 10:12 PM
LOL, so you're proving my point for me... that in the hands of anyone less than a F1-caliber driver, you'll go faster in a great handling car despite the fact that it makes 100hp/ton less, and probably enjoy it more too. I did say "all things being equal" but ok, if you want to take it that far, I agree.

But your point is taken, certainly a great driver can do things with a tough car that mere mortals cannot fathom. I'm reminded of the video that was just posted here of Francois Delecour driving a GT3 RS on a rally stage, it was mesmerizing. With that in mind, I'd say there are 3 types of drivers:

- Heroes
- Those who know they aren't heroes, and
- Those who think they're heroes.

I'm not ashamed to admit which category I'm in. My next sportscar will be a pure driver.
You stated an absolute. I proved your absolute wrong.

The driver and conditions were held equal, and the challenging to handle ZR1 proved to be a faster car than the easy to handle R8.

Yes, if your limits as a driver are fairly low, you personally are going to be faster in a car that's easier to drive. However, that says nothing about the upper limits of the cars you drive. Chances are, you haven't even touched them in at least one, if not two, of the cars.

Basically, my point is that your comment has much more to do with the driver than the car. Here, let me reword your statement so it's more accurate: "It sounds nice when you're bragging to your buddies, but the bottom line is, with an average to below average driver, a car whose performance is accessible is always better than some beast that might throw you off the road depending on what's around that next corner."

Also, I don't think there are three types of drivers. I think there's a bunch of drivers whose skill varies over a spectrum.
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tarheel91,Apr 26 2010, 09:14 PM
You stated an absolute. I proved your absolute wrong.
No you didn't. He said that the better handling car is always better; you demonstrated that the better handling car isn't always faster, which is a different and minimally relevant point.

If you're not lapping a race track in sanctioned competition, then who cares about relatively small differences in performance potential? And if you are, then the vehicle you're competing in is likely so far removed from a street car that comparisons of the street version are likely meaningless.
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:23 AM
  #114  
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I love my S2000, but I've never recommended one to another person due to the driver skill needed, but that's just my opinion.
And you have the girly version too! 00-01; snap-oversteer old 911 style.
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Old 04-27-2010, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PedalFaster,Apr 27 2010, 01:41 AM
No you didn't. He said that the better handling car is always better; you demonstrated that the better handling car isn't always faster, which is a different and minimally relevant point.

If you're not lapping a race track in sanctioned competition, then who cares about relatively small differences in performance potential? And if you are, then the vehicle you're competing in is likely so far removed from a street car that comparisons of the street version are likely meaningless.
The discussion we're having implies driving something at its limit, and where else would you do that but at the track? Thus, faster = better. Unless you're at your car's limit, these concerns of power and how difficult a car is to control shouldn't matter. There should be no difference between the cars during normal driving conditions. You're not coming anywhere near to 1/10th of their limits.

Also, the only way any one could reasonably make any absolute statement would be if they were saying it about something objective. How enjoyable a car is, how fun it is, etc., all of that is subjective, and certainly no one would try to make such an extreme statement as "X is ALWAYS better than Y" about something subjective. When it comes to cars and objectivity, there's only one thing you could be referring to: performance. Again, faster = better.
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:45 PM
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[QUOTE=tarheel91,Apr 27 2010, 02:40 PM]The discussion we're having implies driving something at its limit, and where else would you do that but at the track?
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:42 PM
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[QUOTE=PedalFaster,Apr 28 2010, 12:45 AM] I'd way rather drive a great handling, easy to slide car at a track day than a ill handling car that was slightly faster.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:38 AM
  #118  
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I will add that I have driven a Z4M pretty hard around town on a test drive. The sales guy was a bit scared when I asked how he thought I made a turn and I said I wanted to see how it felt hitting redline and cornering. I also drove a Cayman non S when they first came out through the mountain and one of the sales guys made fun of me for not smoking the brakes when coming back from the test drive. I am coming from a 1995 Porsche 993 that was stolen and into the '07 S2000 currently. I will tell everyone that the most fun car I have ever driven was that Z4M. There was something just so fun. It handled really well and the engine just seemed overkill for such a small car.

The turnoff of the car was that the maintenance was a bit crazy expensive once out of warranty. Yeah I said that coming from my leaky oil 20 year old Porsche.
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:24 AM
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[QUOTE=tarheel91,Apr 27 2010, 09:42 PM]If you look at the message he quoted, it was talking about Car and Driver Lightning Laps.
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