ND2 vs SS 1LE
07-11-2019, 12:20 PM
#111
Holy wall of text! I've driven a few Focus RS's and actually prefer them over the base Mustang GT for similar reasons, but as you said you also have to deal with Ford, which is a big turn off. They are mighty proud of that car too and at $42k, the economy car roots make it a tough pill to swallow. For me the compromises are trading lap times for utility (tire section width, engine cooling/longevity, FWD layout, added failure points w/AWD, etc). If you're buying a track car that you can daily it's tough to beat a 1LE, but if you're buying a daily that you can track a FoRS or Golf R would more sense especially if you don't live in SoCal where it almost never rains. The Miata is a weekender that you can track or daily and represents a unique driving experience at the expense of utility.. It's a tough call, but really there is no wrong answer. The fun part is in the discovery of which car really speaks to you..
07-12-2019, 06:35 AM
#112
I've also been fortunate to gave driven many cars, and especially the cars I'm interested in buying. These two perplexed me as there wasn't a clear winner as they were great at their respective ends of the spectrum, but both with compromises.
Me personally, I buy cars for myself, but it's always fun to have something that just rocks the socks, makes for fun ball busting, but even more than that power is fun. The ND2 is the first miata I've actually seriously considered because now it has enough beans to be fun.
I've owned an FRS, and I love everything about it but the engine. If it had the wrx motor in it, I'd still have it and probably would've bought it new. The s15 Silvia is a dream car of mine, loved driving it while I was in japan and man that would've been perfection.
I am leaning more towards the nd2 rf though. The problem with the camaro and the shelby or pony cars in general is that while you're driving it around it doesn't feel any different than a Camry that you have to be very mindful of. The frs, s2000, and nd are just fun riding around in. Small, low to the ground, nimble, just has a fun anxious personality, a nice change of pace car that I can enjoy with minimal stress.
Me personally, I buy cars for myself, but it's always fun to have something that just rocks the socks, makes for fun ball busting, but even more than that power is fun. The ND2 is the first miata I've actually seriously considered because now it has enough beans to be fun.
I've owned an FRS, and I love everything about it but the engine. If it had the wrx motor in it, I'd still have it and probably would've bought it new. The s15 Silvia is a dream car of mine, loved driving it while I was in japan and man that would've been perfection.
I am leaning more towards the nd2 rf though. The problem with the camaro and the shelby or pony cars in general is that while you're driving it around it doesn't feel any different than a Camry that you have to be very mindful of. The frs, s2000, and nd are just fun riding around in. Small, low to the ground, nimble, just has a fun anxious personality, a nice change of pace car that I can enjoy with minimal stress.
Life is too short to own dull cars or compromise. If it doesn't make me giggle and smile I don't want to own it.
07-12-2019, 09:04 AM
#113
I do trackdays every year. Been doing them for 20 years now. 2 wheels and 4. I’ve owned a Subaru before but don’t now, my AWD turbo hatch is from Ford. I’ve done many track days in the rain, even did one last year in the snow at Utah Motorsports Park. 32 degrees with snow falling, it just wasn’t sticking. And we were on MPSS with windows down. Only people who’ve handed me my ass were professional race drivers who instruct on the side. Someone in a much more expensive car blasting me down the straight doesn’’t mean anything to me. Neither does someone in a super car getting me in a turn. On 2 wheels I’ve had some 15 year old kid on a 250 smoker wax my ass and that didn’t bother me either as he was headed up the ranks to the pros. Not everyone that goes to the track worries about their track dick. If I had a benny for every juiced up rider or driver out there with a chip on their shoulder I’d be a rich man. It’s worse on bikes than in cars but there are always someone in every session with ED. I’ve done many tracks in the US, Laguna Seca, COTA probably the most noteworthy. I think these compromises you mention are only in people’s minds.
It’s fun in the rain. I’m passing 6 figure RWD cars at will all day. Some people straight up bail when it rains. Yeah you can get me down the straight in the warn/dry but you don’t win anything at a trackday. No contracts handed out, no trophies, no brollies, and no champagne unless you bring your own. And good luck getting me in a turn. When I need to get my straight line fix I’m on 2 wheels and you’d see fly right by you like you were standing still. Many of us here do trackdays. Nothing changes the fact that some cars are just faster in all weather conditions. I’ll take the straight line hit for that myself.
Don, for grins I drove a ‘19 SS 1LE tonight. Silver, black hood, only option was the $1300 data recorder. Visibility was poor. Windshield was tiny, and the view through the rear view mirror was minuscule. Car had 10 miles on it. I put 17 on it hitting some underpasses and some highway on ramps. It was a boat. Large, and you could definitely feel the weight. Very reminiscent of the last Mustang GT PP I drove. I wasn’t that impressed at all. Tried the rev match on the paddle, was a cool feature. Brakes were solid, shifter was nice, great engagement. I did manage to get it to wheel hop through a hard left onto some s’s close to my house. I didn’t engage launch control (I’m sure it has it) but midrange wasn’t anything I would call spectacular. The HUD was cool. You can raise or lower it, it projects out like it’s in front of the hood. I cycled it and think it had a g meter or something on it. At first I though it was a tach but it was some sort of G meter I think. You could also increase/decrease the brightness. The base stereo was awful (Yeah I know no one buys one for that). Recaros were nice too. I had zero interest after driving it. I much prefer the previous gen Camaro. A good friend has a 2013 ZL1. Visibility is much better and it’s a completely different experience with the blower. I love his car. He put ceramic rotors on it, and race seats in it for the track. I checked on those and you could get one for the same money with extremely low miles. I would take it all day over the newer Camaro. You stomp on the pedal in his car and that thing provides a whole different experience.
I like the GT350 very much too and almost bought one but preferred the turbo AWD hatch. I guess I don’t like the size and weight of the pony’s despite having much higher hp/tq. There is definitely something to a lighter, smaller car, even if it’s slower. Some will prefer the machete, others the scalpel. If you want both it’s like you have to buy a Porsche with a flat six or a turbo.
It’s fun in the rain. I’m passing 6 figure RWD cars at will all day. Some people straight up bail when it rains. Yeah you can get me down the straight in the warn/dry but you don’t win anything at a trackday. No contracts handed out, no trophies, no brollies, and no champagne unless you bring your own. And good luck getting me in a turn. When I need to get my straight line fix I’m on 2 wheels and you’d see fly right by you like you were standing still. Many of us here do trackdays. Nothing changes the fact that some cars are just faster in all weather conditions. I’ll take the straight line hit for that myself.
Don, for grins I drove a ‘19 SS 1LE tonight. Silver, black hood, only option was the $1300 data recorder. Visibility was poor. Windshield was tiny, and the view through the rear view mirror was minuscule. Car had 10 miles on it. I put 17 on it hitting some underpasses and some highway on ramps. It was a boat. Large, and you could definitely feel the weight. Very reminiscent of the last Mustang GT PP I drove. I wasn’t that impressed at all. Tried the rev match on the paddle, was a cool feature. Brakes were solid, shifter was nice, great engagement. I did manage to get it to wheel hop through a hard left onto some s’s close to my house. I didn’t engage launch control (I’m sure it has it) but midrange wasn’t anything I would call spectacular. The HUD was cool. You can raise or lower it, it projects out like it’s in front of the hood. I cycled it and think it had a g meter or something on it. At first I though it was a tach but it was some sort of G meter I think. You could also increase/decrease the brightness. The base stereo was awful (Yeah I know no one buys one for that). Recaros were nice too. I had zero interest after driving it. I much prefer the previous gen Camaro. A good friend has a 2013 ZL1. Visibility is much better and it’s a completely different experience with the blower. I love his car. He put ceramic rotors on it, and race seats in it for the track. I checked on those and you could get one for the same money with extremely low miles. I would take it all day over the newer Camaro. You stomp on the pedal in his car and that thing provides a whole different experience.
I like the GT350 very much too and almost bought one but preferred the turbo AWD hatch. I guess I don’t like the size and weight of the pony’s despite having much higher hp/tq. There is definitely something to a lighter, smaller car, even if it’s slower. Some will prefer the machete, others the scalpel. If you want both it’s like you have to buy a Porsche with a flat six or a turbo.
I'm a little confused at the analysis here. The 6th gen Camaro is so dynamically ahead of the 5th gen that it's not even close. It's smaller than before and lighter as well. SS model is only a few hundred pounds heavier than a Focus RS, so that argument is a little difficult to understand. It's not 4100 lb like your 2013 buddy's ZL1. It also outhandles a Focus RS with ease. Not that I'm hating on the RS, just being realistic and objective here. RS being called a scalpel compared to an SS amuses me.
Someone else said they cost over $40k new, but MSRP on the standard model was just over $36k.
07-12-2019, 10:06 AM
#114
If only a camry was so well balanced, offered an amazing v8, sat low, had a manual and provided sharp turn ins. I just dont get this comment. Neither of my big power cars feel as dull an boring as a camry.
Life is too short to own dull cars or compromise. If it doesn't make me giggle and smile I don't want to own it.
Life is too short to own dull cars or compromise. If it doesn't make me giggle and smile I don't want to own it.
Driving around public roads, amongst the unwashed masses with their CUVs and short attentions spans, driving on roads zoned for horse and carriages servicing a grossly overpopulated area, a car doesnt have the ability to explore its agility or power. Modern pony cars do a fantastic job in refinement relative to cars like say the S2000. NVH levels are low, you sit in comfort with a good (I'm not an audiophile) stereo, feels pretty luxurious. The other edge to that double edged sword is that just driving around, it feels like a Camry.
Additionally, the roofline and your head level are about the same in the pony cars as most mid size sedans, and I had plenty of time to compare them in my own garage. So when you're driving around town, in the driver's hell I described above, it really does give off the impression of just another car.
Now when you get a little bit of space, find a nice on/off ramp, etc, oh yeah, feels very different, hell the fact that it's a stick alone drives that point home. But catching every damn redlight behind a Prius, trying to make a right hand turn at intersections where pedestrians are glued to their phone, etc, yeah, Camry bro.
Did I mention how miserable it can be living in California?
But I'm with you, I need to buy a car that captures my imagination and attention, but reality will ground you. Both of these cars offer compelling arguments. Both cars do that for me, the Camaro in the conventional way, the ND in a progressive way.
07-12-2019, 10:12 AM
#115
I'm a little confused at the analysis here. The 6th gen Camaro is so dynamically ahead of the 5th gen that it's not even close. It's smaller than before and lighter as well. SS model is only a few hundred pounds heavier than a Focus RS, so that argument is a little difficult to understand. It's not 4100 lb like your 2013 buddy's ZL1. It also outhandles a Focus RS with ease. Not that I'm hating on the RS, just being realistic and objective here. RS being called a scalpel compared to an SS amuses me.
Someone else said they cost over $40k new, but MSRP on the standard model was just over $36k.
Someone else said they cost over $40k new, but MSRP on the standard model was just over $36k.
The standard SS is 36k which is equipped like a mustang GT performance pack 1. The car is good, but the 1LE is the special one, it's like it was engineered to that spec and then watered down for price point for the base model, where I felt like the Mustang was engineered to the GT spec, and then upgraded from there.
But the RS is a capable machine, and in most of our hands would probably be the better dance partner than the 1LE, but the 1LE has the higher ceiling.
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asrautox (07-12-2019)
07-13-2019, 01:49 PM
#116
I'm a little confused at the analysis here. The 6th gen Camaro is so dynamically ahead of the 5th gen that it's not even close. It's smaller than before and lighter as well. SS model is only a few hundred pounds heavier than a Focus RS, so that argument is a little difficult to understand. It's not 4100 lb like your 2013 buddy's ZL1. It also outhandles a Focus RS with ease. Not that I'm hating on the RS, just being realistic and objective here. RS being called a scalpel compared to an SS amuses me.
Someone else said they cost over $40k new, but MSRP on the standard model was just over $36k.
Someone else said they cost over $40k new, but MSRP on the standard model was just over $36k.
Driving these cars I disagree, no way does the 1LE outhandle my car with ease. No way. It’s carrying more weight and a much larger car. One has a torque vectoring awd system, the other is RWD with an e diff. If a lap time is your only concern (seems to be the case on forums) perhaps, but I’m talking about general use which is vast. I took the 1LE around the same turns I drive regularly in my car. They aren’t high speed corners, 2nd and 3rd if you are feeling brave. The 1LE felt like an overweight pig. It’s faster than my car in a straight line but it isn’t dramatically quicker. The RS is a scalpel to me. The torque vectoring is no joke, it’s one of the best handling cars I have ever driven. On a damp curvy road it would leave many more expensive cars. They would struggle to keep up with it. But it’s a Ford, and a Focus, most have never driven one and put it through the paces so it will always get hated on. Hate away, someone else’s hate doesn’t dictate what I buy.
And we here on this forum have all been around these parts for quite some time. And each of us is very very opinionated, it ain’t just me. I don’t like the large and heavy V8’s myself. For me it’s the combination, larger footprint and more weight. I don’t like them. Every time I drive one I’m like meh and I wanted to like them, I was about to buy a GT350 and ultimately said not for me. Money wasn’t the issue. It’s just large and heavy. That’s fine. Most of those owners would dismiss my car from the get go. Cosmos on here has driven my car on track, COTA iirc, and said it was the funnest cars he has ever driven on track. That’s what Ford did, they built the car to be a driver’s car and be fun. A blast to corner in, traction for days, and a little button to send 70% to the rear wheels. It will never win the online forum stat sheet wars. Over the years I’ve learned that even these modern journalists get a lot of things wrong.
And I will reiterate. The ZL1 I just drove, was an entirely different driving experience to the 1LE. Large difference to me behind the wheel. The blower makes up for a lot of things I don’t like about the car in general.
07-13-2019, 02:18 PM
#118
I think Tommy is comparing his personal FoRS, which it sounds like he’s modified, to showroom stock 1LE’s. Stock to stock, a FoRS is notably slower in a straight line and around a road course. Like not even close. But modifying either car can sway the discrepancy in the other direction. That said, the FoRS is the only car I’ve driven in recently history that you can execute a 90 degree turn at full throttle and it will actually just hunker down and go where you point it. Try that in a 1LE without driving assists and you’d be a$$ backwards in a second. He’s right that the car is a hoot to drive, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to quicker lap times. Peak acceleration and cornering speeds are ultimately slower, but that’s only because the 1LE has a huge mechanical grip and power advantage in stock form. I can see why someone coming from a modified FoRS would find a stock 1LE heavy and ponderous.
07-13-2019, 02:25 PM
#119
I think Tommy is comparing his personal FoRS, which it sounds like he’s modified, to showroom stock 1LE’s. Stock to stock, a FoRS is notably slower in a straight line and around a road course. Like not even close. But modifying either car can sway the discrepancy in the other direction. That said, the FoRS is the only car I’ve driven in recently history that you can execute a 90 degree turn at full throttle and it will actually just hunker down and go where you point it. Try that in a 1LE without driving assists and you’d be a$$ backwards in a second. He’s right that the car is a hoot to drive, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to quicker lap times. Peak acceleration and cornering speeds are ultimately slower, but that’s only because the 1LE has a huge mechanical grip and power advantage in stock form. I can see why someone coming from a modified FoRS would find a stock 1LE heavy and ponderous.
07-14-2019, 12:46 PM
#120
Hmm, the focus feels noticeably smaller than the camaro. The camaro is a bigger car that feels even more so because of the bunker feel it gives, whereas the glasshouse of the rs is alot more airy, and is a subcompact car.
This sorta goes with the original discussion in that smaller cars just give a driving experience that a bigger car cant even if the bigger car's handling is objectively as capable if not superior.
We had this debate before along time ago about what is handling, is it the actual cars capability for going around corners and being correctable or is it feel. If it's the latter then old 911s and miatas will be amongst the best handling cars period and race cars are among the worst. I mean the gtr for instance will destroy many cars, but it has a video game feel.
The awd hot hatches inspire a ton of confidence because the learning curve floor is high and not as steep, where a 450hp rwd 3600lb coupe has a lower floor and steeper climb.
And that's what the nd is, it provides the forgiving, communicative fun that encourages you vs challenges you into fear.
I do need to drive the rs though, but for my money from a car enthusiast stand point I'd rather have the ss 1le, but when I factor in practicality and just ease to drive fast, the rs is tops.
This sorta goes with the original discussion in that smaller cars just give a driving experience that a bigger car cant even if the bigger car's handling is objectively as capable if not superior.
We had this debate before along time ago about what is handling, is it the actual cars capability for going around corners and being correctable or is it feel. If it's the latter then old 911s and miatas will be amongst the best handling cars period and race cars are among the worst. I mean the gtr for instance will destroy many cars, but it has a video game feel.
The awd hot hatches inspire a ton of confidence because the learning curve floor is high and not as steep, where a 450hp rwd 3600lb coupe has a lower floor and steeper climb.
And that's what the nd is, it provides the forgiving, communicative fun that encourages you vs challenges you into fear.
I do need to drive the rs though, but for my money from a car enthusiast stand point I'd rather have the ss 1le, but when I factor in practicality and just ease to drive fast, the rs is tops.
