Performance VS. Fun to Drive
04-16-2010, 08:07 AM
#42
Registered User
I think the distinction becomes evident whenever a car wins a magazine test, and people post in outrage because another car in the test had a faster 0 - 60 time. A sizeable number of people on this forum seem to believe that the car with the fastest acceleration should always win comparison tests, handlng, braking, and other factors notwithstanding.
04-16-2010, 08:46 AM
#44
Fun to drive- STRICTLY SUBJECTIVE.
Performance- OBJECTIVE.
So you get into an argument, one person says facts and the other says opinions, and bam you have a sorta political argument. Ideals vs. facts, that's where I usually chime in and go on spirited debates.
Some people have more fun driving around a dubbed bagged Escalade than a Lotus Elise. Does that make the escalade better?
Also, to say a car sucks because you don't think it's fun to drive it a crappy argument, because it's just your opinion.
Going back to the 911 and Corvette argument, I know enough people with vettes that have a ton of fun in corvettes, and I know enough people who want/own 911s but can't really say anything outside a magazine as to why they like it.
I know people who have old VW beetles and pour paychecks into them.
With all this said, I'm a firm believer that a person should always test drive all the cars they're considering and make their own decision. When I was looking for my ideal car, I was sure I was going to buy a 350Z, absolutely sure of it. In the end I got the S which I've been knocking for years, and with somewhat good reason. But in the end, the S was the most fun to drive to me. My friends aren't like minded, they have other cars and feel my car is too much of a handful to access the power, they prefer their cars, and I found their cars to be wildly exciting as well.
Problem with a lot of folks on these boards is that they use their opinions to knock cars. It's one thing to say something like oh this was good this was bad, my own take is this, vs. this car's interios is crap, it's not refined, and it does nothing for me I can't see why anyone would buy this car. This argument, although seemingly innocent, invokes a perception of enlightenment, a perception that instigate objective folks, and thus long threads.
And if people were just more honest about their views I think there would be no confusion. For instance, I'm looking into buying a miata, but the reason why I can't seem to pull the trigger is because, well, I like having nice flossy flossy cars. I mean yeah, the S2000 isn't exactly a Ferrari, but hell, it commands more envy than a miata, or a 240, or an EG will get. I'm not afraid to say it, I put a lot of hard earned cash into my car, I want something to be proud of, and part of that is acknowledgement from society. Getting criticisms from people gets old, and our materialistic society compels me to conform, hard to fight nature sometimes especially when you're not carrying around a mandingo sized penis (mine is just an inch shorter, and it's all about inches, lol). My mom wanted a Lexus, I asked why, she said cuz it's a friggin Lexus and I must have one at the Church parking lot (well maybe not in those words, but you get my idea). What's wrong with saying I always wanted a BMW, or Porsche? Are you a snob? Only if you're saying you corvette owners cant appreciate the Porsche vs. dude, it's a friggin Porsche over a Chevy. I think if we started on that premise, there'd be a lot less red faced arguments.
What's wrong with saying LOOK AT IT, friggin love the look of that car. Or man, I finally got me a porsche! I mean the car experience isnt just about performance or th drive, it's also all the other intangibles. Otherwise all of our spouses would just be the best personality, all of our clothes will be white and black, there'd be no designer anything, everyone will be a stickler for quality, you wouldn't need marketing, etc.
/soap box.
Performance- OBJECTIVE.
So you get into an argument, one person says facts and the other says opinions, and bam you have a sorta political argument. Ideals vs. facts, that's where I usually chime in and go on spirited debates.
Some people have more fun driving around a dubbed bagged Escalade than a Lotus Elise. Does that make the escalade better?
Also, to say a car sucks because you don't think it's fun to drive it a crappy argument, because it's just your opinion.
Going back to the 911 and Corvette argument, I know enough people with vettes that have a ton of fun in corvettes, and I know enough people who want/own 911s but can't really say anything outside a magazine as to why they like it.
I know people who have old VW beetles and pour paychecks into them.
With all this said, I'm a firm believer that a person should always test drive all the cars they're considering and make their own decision. When I was looking for my ideal car, I was sure I was going to buy a 350Z, absolutely sure of it. In the end I got the S which I've been knocking for years, and with somewhat good reason. But in the end, the S was the most fun to drive to me. My friends aren't like minded, they have other cars and feel my car is too much of a handful to access the power, they prefer their cars, and I found their cars to be wildly exciting as well.
Problem with a lot of folks on these boards is that they use their opinions to knock cars. It's one thing to say something like oh this was good this was bad, my own take is this, vs. this car's interios is crap, it's not refined, and it does nothing for me I can't see why anyone would buy this car. This argument, although seemingly innocent, invokes a perception of enlightenment, a perception that instigate objective folks, and thus long threads.
And if people were just more honest about their views I think there would be no confusion. For instance, I'm looking into buying a miata, but the reason why I can't seem to pull the trigger is because, well, I like having nice flossy flossy cars. I mean yeah, the S2000 isn't exactly a Ferrari, but hell, it commands more envy than a miata, or a 240, or an EG will get. I'm not afraid to say it, I put a lot of hard earned cash into my car, I want something to be proud of, and part of that is acknowledgement from society. Getting criticisms from people gets old, and our materialistic society compels me to conform, hard to fight nature sometimes especially when you're not carrying around a mandingo sized penis (mine is just an inch shorter, and it's all about inches, lol). My mom wanted a Lexus, I asked why, she said cuz it's a friggin Lexus and I must have one at the Church parking lot (well maybe not in those words, but you get my idea). What's wrong with saying I always wanted a BMW, or Porsche? Are you a snob? Only if you're saying you corvette owners cant appreciate the Porsche vs. dude, it's a friggin Porsche over a Chevy. I think if we started on that premise, there'd be a lot less red faced arguments.
What's wrong with saying LOOK AT IT, friggin love the look of that car. Or man, I finally got me a porsche! I mean the car experience isnt just about performance or th drive, it's also all the other intangibles. Otherwise all of our spouses would just be the best personality, all of our clothes will be white and black, there'd be no designer anything, everyone will be a stickler for quality, you wouldn't need marketing, etc.
/soap box.
04-16-2010, 11:06 AM
#45
Banned
Fun to drive for me.
I had more fun driving my 3800lb maserati than I had driving the much lighter and more agile STi, two cars made for two completely different things, yet the luxury cruiser was far more fun to drive (downshifting in an italian v8 is just amazing sounding, had wayyyy less body roll than the sti too). The s2000 is so fun to drive I'm on my 3rd one.
I had more fun driving my 3800lb maserati than I had driving the much lighter and more agile STi, two cars made for two completely different things, yet the luxury cruiser was far more fun to drive (downshifting in an italian v8 is just amazing sounding, had wayyyy less body roll than the sti too). The s2000 is so fun to drive I'm on my 3rd one.
04-16-2010, 08:15 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by TheDonEffect,Apr 16 2010, 09:46 AM
Fun to drive- STRICTLY SUBJECTIVE.
Performance- OBJECTIVE.
So you get into an argument, one person says facts and the other says opinions, and bam you have a sorta political argument. Ideals vs. facts, that's where I usually chime in and go on spirited debates.
Some people have more fun driving around a dubbed bagged Escalade than a Lotus Elise. Does that make the escalade better?
Also, to say a car sucks because you don't think it's fun to drive it a crappy argument, because it's just your opinion.
Going back to the 911 and Corvette argument, I know enough people with vettes that have a ton of fun in corvettes, and I know enough people who want/own 911s but can't really say anything outside a magazine as to why they like it.
I know people who have old VW beetles and pour paychecks into them.
With all this said, I'm a firm believer that a person should always test drive all the cars they're considering and make their own decision. When I was looking for my ideal car, I was sure I was going to buy a 350Z, absolutely sure of it. In the end I got the S which I've been knocking for years, and with somewhat good reason. But in the end, the S was the most fun to drive to me. My friends aren't like minded, they have other cars and feel my car is too much of a handful to access the power, they prefer their cars, and I found their cars to be wildly exciting as well.
Problem with a lot of folks on these boards is that they use their opinions to knock cars. It's one thing to say something like oh this was good this was bad, my own take is this, vs. this car's interios is crap, it's not refined, and it does nothing for me I can't see why anyone would buy this car. This argument, although seemingly innocent, invokes a perception of enlightenment, a perception that instigate objective folks, and thus long threads.
And if people were just more honest about their views I think there would be no confusion. For instance, I'm looking into buying a miata, but the reason why I can't seem to pull the trigger is because, well, I like having nice flossy flossy cars. I mean yeah, the S2000 isn't exactly a Ferrari, but hell, it commands more envy than a miata, or a 240, or an EG will get. I'm not afraid to say it, I put a lot of hard earned cash into my car, I want something to be proud of, and part of that is acknowledgement from society. Getting criticisms from people gets old, and our materialistic society compels me to conform, hard to fight nature sometimes especially when you're not carrying around a mandingo sized penis (mine is just an inch shorter, and it's all about inches, lol). My mom wanted a Lexus, I asked why, she said cuz it's a friggin Lexus and I must have one at the Church parking lot (well maybe not in those words, but you get my idea). What's wrong with saying I always wanted a BMW, or Porsche? Are you a snob? Only if you're saying you corvette owners cant appreciate the Porsche vs. dude, it's a friggin Porsche over a Chevy. I think if we started on that premise, there'd be a lot less red faced arguments.
What's wrong with saying LOOK AT IT, friggin love the look of that car. Or man, I finally got me a porsche! I mean the car experience isnt just about performance or th drive, it's also all the other intangibles. Otherwise all of our spouses would just be the best personality, all of our clothes will be white and black, there'd be no designer anything, everyone will be a stickler for quality, you wouldn't need marketing, etc.
/soap box.
Performance- OBJECTIVE.
So you get into an argument, one person says facts and the other says opinions, and bam you have a sorta political argument. Ideals vs. facts, that's where I usually chime in and go on spirited debates.
Some people have more fun driving around a dubbed bagged Escalade than a Lotus Elise. Does that make the escalade better?
Also, to say a car sucks because you don't think it's fun to drive it a crappy argument, because it's just your opinion.
Going back to the 911 and Corvette argument, I know enough people with vettes that have a ton of fun in corvettes, and I know enough people who want/own 911s but can't really say anything outside a magazine as to why they like it.
I know people who have old VW beetles and pour paychecks into them.
With all this said, I'm a firm believer that a person should always test drive all the cars they're considering and make their own decision. When I was looking for my ideal car, I was sure I was going to buy a 350Z, absolutely sure of it. In the end I got the S which I've been knocking for years, and with somewhat good reason. But in the end, the S was the most fun to drive to me. My friends aren't like minded, they have other cars and feel my car is too much of a handful to access the power, they prefer their cars, and I found their cars to be wildly exciting as well.
Problem with a lot of folks on these boards is that they use their opinions to knock cars. It's one thing to say something like oh this was good this was bad, my own take is this, vs. this car's interios is crap, it's not refined, and it does nothing for me I can't see why anyone would buy this car. This argument, although seemingly innocent, invokes a perception of enlightenment, a perception that instigate objective folks, and thus long threads.
And if people were just more honest about their views I think there would be no confusion. For instance, I'm looking into buying a miata, but the reason why I can't seem to pull the trigger is because, well, I like having nice flossy flossy cars. I mean yeah, the S2000 isn't exactly a Ferrari, but hell, it commands more envy than a miata, or a 240, or an EG will get. I'm not afraid to say it, I put a lot of hard earned cash into my car, I want something to be proud of, and part of that is acknowledgement from society. Getting criticisms from people gets old, and our materialistic society compels me to conform, hard to fight nature sometimes especially when you're not carrying around a mandingo sized penis (mine is just an inch shorter, and it's all about inches, lol). My mom wanted a Lexus, I asked why, she said cuz it's a friggin Lexus and I must have one at the Church parking lot (well maybe not in those words, but you get my idea). What's wrong with saying I always wanted a BMW, or Porsche? Are you a snob? Only if you're saying you corvette owners cant appreciate the Porsche vs. dude, it's a friggin Porsche over a Chevy. I think if we started on that premise, there'd be a lot less red faced arguments.
What's wrong with saying LOOK AT IT, friggin love the look of that car. Or man, I finally got me a porsche! I mean the car experience isnt just about performance or th drive, it's also all the other intangibles. Otherwise all of our spouses would just be the best personality, all of our clothes will be white and black, there'd be no designer anything, everyone will be a stickler for quality, you wouldn't need marketing, etc.
/soap box.
My goal was to bring the enthusiast point of view so when you mention Escalade and Lexus those people can be enthusiasts of those brands but when I mention enthusiast I think more along the lines of sports cars,performance cars,and muscle car enthusiasts only!
Second you are right everybody has an opinion and they like to knock other cars that don't go with their opinion and will freely and REPEATEDLY give it over and over again because that is natural to justify our choices over others.
Everybody's personality is different also and mine is the one where I like what I like car wise and really don't care if you do not agree with me or not!
You say you know people that have a ton of fun in their Corvettes and while I believe you I also believe that this group is the one that is such hardcore Corvette people that the majority of that group have never driven GTI's , S2000's , and 911's so they have no basis to compare what was fun to drive or not!
Most Corvette people have the "If it does not have a V8 it is worthless" attitude and besides that is kind of where I was getting at with the Vette nailing the performance numbers but being numb under the fun to drive category.
After the S2000 was paid for I ended up getting the STI as the S garage mate but after 6 months of ownership realized that while the performance was great it felt NUMB in comparison to the S . The STI felt like the worlds fastest Buick except with a rock hard race car suspension, heavy clutch feel and awful expensive insurance rating. While I still dig the STI I feel the cons outweighed the great performance of the car and I knew it would be different than the S but it just did not satisfy in the way the S did at least not for me.
So the hunt continued for what I was looking for and with a quick test drive of a used 02 Carrera I found what I had been missing . I know why the P car is a legend in its own time . Awesome steering feel ,super strong brakes , unreal sound coming from that flat 6 , and handling that is hard to believe from such a rear weight biased machine . I feel deeply in love
I just can't believe anyone would buy the Vette after a drive in this awesome machine! Sure the Vette has more performance than a base Carrera even the STI might out accelerate it but man the fun to drive and feedback is off the scale in the 911 . Fun to drive wins again and that is my opinion . I think I understand those with drug,sex,alcohol addiction now. I took a hit and now the 911 is my automotive cocaine. I can imagine telling Dr. Drew I am a 911 addict.
04-19-2010, 07:20 AM
#49
Originally Posted by Silverstreak HX,Apr 16 2010, 08:15 PM
Very good post . You give lots to think and mull over!
My goal was to bring the enthusiast point of view so when you mention Escalade and Lexus those people can be enthusiasts of those brands but when I mention enthusiast I think more along the lines of sports cars,performance cars,and muscle car enthusiasts only!
Second you are right everybody has an opinion and they like to knock other cars that don't go with their opinion and will freely and REPEATEDLY give it over and over again because that is natural to justify our choices over others.
Everybody's personality is different also and mine is the one where I like what I like car wise and really don't care if you do not agree with me or not!
You say you know people that have a ton of fun in their Corvettes and while I believe you I also believe that this group is the one that is such hardcore Corvette people that the majority of that group have never driven GTI's , S2000's , and 911's so they have no basis to compare what was fun to drive or not!
Most Corvette people have the "If it does not have a V8 it is worthless" attitude and besides that is kind of where I was getting at with the Vette nailing the performance numbers but being numb under the fun to drive category.
After the S2000 was paid for I ended up getting the STI as the S garage mate but after 6 months of ownership realized that while the performance was great it felt NUMB in comparison to the S . The STI felt like the worlds fastest Buick except with a rock hard race car suspension, heavy clutch feel and awful expensive insurance rating. While I still dig the STI I feel the cons outweighed the great performance of the car and I knew it would be different than the S but it just did not satisfy in the way the S did at least not for me.
So the hunt continued for what I was looking for and with a quick test drive of a used 02 Carrera I found what I had been missing . I know why the P car is a legend in its own time . Awesome steering feel ,super strong brakes , unreal sound coming from that flat 6 , and handling that is hard to believe from such a rear weight biased machine . I feel deeply in love I just can't believe anyone would buy the Vette after a drive in this awesome machine! Sure the Vette has more performance than a base Carrera even the STI might out accelerate it but man the fun to drive and feedback is off the scale in the 911 . Fun to drive wins again and that is my opinion . I think I understand those with drug,sex,alcohol addiction now. I took a hit and now the 911 is my automotive cocaine.
I can imagine telling Dr. Drew I am a 911 addict.
My goal was to bring the enthusiast point of view so when you mention Escalade and Lexus those people can be enthusiasts of those brands but when I mention enthusiast I think more along the lines of sports cars,performance cars,and muscle car enthusiasts only!
Second you are right everybody has an opinion and they like to knock other cars that don't go with their opinion and will freely and REPEATEDLY give it over and over again because that is natural to justify our choices over others.
Everybody's personality is different also and mine is the one where I like what I like car wise and really don't care if you do not agree with me or not!
You say you know people that have a ton of fun in their Corvettes and while I believe you I also believe that this group is the one that is such hardcore Corvette people that the majority of that group have never driven GTI's , S2000's , and 911's so they have no basis to compare what was fun to drive or not!
Most Corvette people have the "If it does not have a V8 it is worthless" attitude and besides that is kind of where I was getting at with the Vette nailing the performance numbers but being numb under the fun to drive category.
After the S2000 was paid for I ended up getting the STI as the S garage mate but after 6 months of ownership realized that while the performance was great it felt NUMB in comparison to the S . The STI felt like the worlds fastest Buick except with a rock hard race car suspension, heavy clutch feel and awful expensive insurance rating. While I still dig the STI I feel the cons outweighed the great performance of the car and I knew it would be different than the S but it just did not satisfy in the way the S did at least not for me.
So the hunt continued for what I was looking for and with a quick test drive of a used 02 Carrera I found what I had been missing . I know why the P car is a legend in its own time . Awesome steering feel ,super strong brakes , unreal sound coming from that flat 6 , and handling that is hard to believe from such a rear weight biased machine . I feel deeply in love
I just can't believe anyone would buy the Vette after a drive in this awesome machine! Sure the Vette has more performance than a base Carrera even the STI might out accelerate it but man the fun to drive and feedback is off the scale in the 911 . Fun to drive wins again and that is my opinion . I think I understand those with drug,sex,alcohol addiction now. I took a hit and now the 911 is my automotive cocaine. I can imagine telling Dr. Drew I am a 911 addict.
As far as vette owners go, there are a lot of them who yeah, if it doesn't have a V8 it fails, but think about the other way around, theres just as many who write off the vette as domestic garbage, if not more. I find that vette owners, for the most part, are more knowledgeable. Furthermore, outside of the import world, I4s are generally written off. So just because soemone doesn't get all excited when they hear about a <250hp NA I4 when they're used to 300hp+ V8s that can achieve similar gas mileage, you can understand.
The vette vs. 911 debate is an interesting societal discussion as it exhibits alot of social associations, but with that comes numerous exceptions and over generalizations, which is why it's not a simple discussion. In the end, why can't people just say maaan, not my choice of cars but wow, great car! I've expressed my opinions about BMWs on these boards, but when say Chris S posted pics of his beautiful M3, I have to tip my hat off. In the end, they're all great cars. All but a few of us can afford every car we want, so we're going to have to make decisions that align with our personal criteria, and by doing so some of us need to take the step further in convincing ourselves that it was the best decision, i.e. we chose the best car, which sorta puts us part of a team, sorta like profession sports team affiliations.
So yeah, it's cool to prefer certain cars over others, but when a person starts saying stuff negative about other cars, expect that there will be others to dispute those points, but with this people should be open minded because they may be wrong.
04-19-2010, 05:50 PM
#50
Fun to drive is definitely subjective like a few have posted. The 5 years I had S2000s (bought and sold a couple) there was nothing more fun to me than taking it to the canyon for some spirited driving or the local track for some turns.
Once I bought my first torquey car (C6 Z06 and SL55), I was hooked on torque. The urges of canyon driving and tracking was replaced with the G forces of 500+ tq. Worst part is I want more torque, I smell a CL65 700+ tq in the future...
Once I bought my first torquey car (C6 Z06 and SL55), I was hooked on torque. The urges of canyon driving and tracking was replaced with the G forces of 500+ tq. Worst part is I want more torque, I smell a CL65 700+ tq in the future...