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The Return of the Three Brothers

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The Return of the Three Brothers

 
Old 03-16-2017, 07:53 AM
  #11  
 
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I'd be very interested in a new MR2. My spec sheet would read: 2300-2400 lbs., simple design, manual tranny, RWD, 2.0L - 2.4L NA four cylinder engine that puts out 200+ HP, has a healthy torque curve, and sounds awesome at full song. Did I just describe an ND Miata? Almost...the engine, the engine, the engine. Did I just describe an FT86...nope, a little too large/heavy. Being tiny and lightweight are the most important traits to me. Tiny cars are the most fun IMO. They aren't the fastest, but they're incredibly fun and cheap to own and operate. If they could come anywhere close to approaching a 11 lbs. per HP ratio out of the box in a tiny, lightweight car, that would be epic...i.e. 2400 lbs. and 220 HP. Yah I know, I'm dreamin'.

I own two NA Miata's, an MR2 Spyder, and an AP1 S2000. I want the size and weight of the Miata/Spyder, coupled with the engine from the S2000. That would be the ticket. I could care less about gas mileage. Every NA four cylinder engine today gets what I consider great gas mileage. If you're going to build a sports car, build a sports car from scratch, not a sporty version of an economy car. Don't grab the engine out of the sh*tbox from your lineup and dump it into your 'sportscar'. That is where the manufacturers continually veer off track.

Last edited by J Ritt; 03-16-2017 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:24 AM
  #12  
 
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Well said my man!
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:25 PM
  #13  
 
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Originally Posted by J Ritt View Post
I'd be very interested in a new MR2. My spec sheet would read: 2300-2400 lbs., simple design, manual tranny, RWD, 2.0L - 2.4L NA four cylinder engine that puts out 200+ HP, has a healthy torque curve, and sounds awesome at full song. Did I just describe an ND Miata? Almost...the engine, the engine, the engine. Did I just describe an FT86...nope, a little too large/heavy. Being tiny and lightweight are the most important traits to me. Tiny cars are the most fun IMO. They aren't the fastest, but they're incredibly fun and cheap to own and operate. If they could come anywhere close to approaching a 11 lbs. per HP ratio out of the box in a tiny, lightweight car, that would be epic...i.e. 2400 lbs. and 220 HP. Yah I know, I'm dreamin'.

I own two NA Miata's, an MR2 Spyder, and an AP1 S2000. I want the size and weight of the Miata/Spyder, coupled with the engine from the S2000. That would be the ticket. I could care less about gas mileage. Every NA four cylinder engine today gets what I consider great gas mileage. If you're going to build a sports car, build a sports car from scratch, not a sporty version of an economy car. Don't grab the engine out of the sh*tbox from your lineup and dump it into your 'sportscar'. That is where the manufacturers continually veer off track.
I'm totally with you on lightweight sportscars. 2400 lbs and 220 HP does sound great. It is total doable to modify an AP1 for under $20k including the car without sacrificing any streetability to around 2600 lbs and 260 HP. I've got my spreadsheet in front of me. Ok, I'm dork but yeah.

Also, I'm not sure carmakers need a totally bespoke engine for a new sportscar. FWIW, a Lotus Elise was built with a supercharged Celica motor. People do K24 swaps into S2000s. I'm not familiar with Toyota's current engine lineup, but they have to have something that's decent and could be tweaked.
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Old 03-17-2017, 05:42 AM
  #14  
 
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Originally Posted by ChiHonda View Post
Also, I'm not sure carmakers need a totally bespoke engine for a new sportscar. FWIW, a Lotus Elise was built with a supercharged Celica motor. People do K24 swaps into S2000s. I'm not familiar with Toyota's current engine lineup, but they have to have something that's decent and could be tweaked.
I hear you. The Elise has a nearly stock 2ZZ-GE out of the Celica GT-S, with just a couple intake and exhaust tweaks (the Exige S got the supercharger). BUT, the 2ZZ engine was already a +40 HP modified version of the standard 1ZZ engine found in the base Celica, MR-S, Corolla, etc. I'm totally fine with a modified version of a base engine that puts out an additional 30% power. As an example, the 2ZZ is the engine my MR2 Spyder should have had from the factory. The car would have been far more desirable (and fun) with that engine. I just hate seeing manufacturers dump these pedestrian engines into their sports platform with the only change being a valve cover in a different color. I want a factory engine worthy of a proper sports car chassis.

The thing that drives me nuts is that Honda set the benchmark for that situation in the late 80's - early 90's. The B Series engines are a perfect example. They did an amazing job of developing those engines, and practically created the modern aftermarket as we know it. I'd prefer a B18C1 over most of the modern NA four cylinders on the road today, and Honda didn't have to go to extraordinary lengths/cost to make that engine a performer.
B16A- 158 hp
B16B- 185 hp
B18C1-170 hp
B18C5- 195 hp

The problem now is that everything is emissions-driven. If a manufacturer wants to provide a powerful engine, they fall back on smaller displacement and turbocharging to get that power. The turbo adds weight, complication, heat/cooling issues, and more torque...which then leads to heavier drivetrain components. The next thing you know your 2400 lb. car is 300-500 lbs. heavier. On a front driver, you're then also contending with torque-steer, the required electronic trickery to quell it, etc. The recently announced Civic Type R is a perfect example. The car is going to weigh 3,000+ lbs. (and it looks like a Transformer)! I'd take a 100 less hp all day in exchange for a 600 lb. reduction in curb weight and keeping things simple.

In summary, I'm getting old.
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