s2konroids

I'm travelling to work over notorious 'fell road' (lots of hills and dips with lots of deep snow and ice) in a 4x4 (old landrover discovery) you just dont attempt this road with a normal car as people have been stuck. Nobody will dare go over it but if you take your time, you can drive and have a 4x4 is managable, the alternative is to go another way but with more traffic its 1hr15mins vs 30mins, still there are hills to contend with taking the longer route.

I live in the country where really gritters dont exist , lots of hills, winding roads.

I was just thinking today whilst driving, since the government wants to tax the f**k out of 4x4's (ie try and get them off the road) what are we supposed to do in this sort of weather?, does it effect emergency services?, when people get rid of 4x4 then what?

Or maybe its just these chelsea tractors?

Where i live at the moment the S has no chance getting anywhere at all, even getting off the runoff bit from my drive.

/rant

Kelk

I was laughing the other day as all I was seeing was 4x4s and that got me thinking about the fact that the chances that the majority of people round my way that are getting into work are the polution scum (I include myself in that) of the world.

And yet it is these people that keep business and the economy going.

So Gordon, do you want 4x4s and a country trying to get out of recession as some people actually like to work or do you want a nation full of scroungers sitting at home doing FA.......



....oh I seem to have answered my own question.

MarkB

That's the point.

It's nothing to do with 'pollution' (Google 'climategate' if you want the ins and outs) and everything to do with taxing the 'rich', all part of the government's f**ked up mixture of socialism and capitalism.

If you can afford a newer 4x4 you can afford lots of tax, if you can afford to run an older 4x4 you can still afford some tax. They don't want them off the road, but as with everything they want to tax, they have to demonize it first, so incite a bit of climate hatred of the Chelsea tractor drivers, then use it as a populist excuse to take more money off them (never a vote loser with the core labour voter) ergo 4x4=bad=tax.

aldfort

A very good point. However the tax on 4x4's is political. It's really nothing to do with the environment at all.
I actually find it quite cynical that the gov't can cope in bad weather because they refuse to invest or prepare. This must lead to increased sales of 4x4 as folks take their own precautions to make sure they can keep moving, get to work etc. Then the gov't has the cheek to levy extra taxes on the very people who are hard working and probably required to help the country keep moving in poor weather.

Tip of the iceberg though - You wait until they start cutting your child benefits because you are not poor, or deciding that you don't need a state pension when you retire because you saved a bit or that despite the fact you pay your NI you should also pay for your healthcare and your GP visits. - Why - because you work hard!

dreamer

Kelk was being tongue in cheek I suspect....

I have been having similar thoughts myself; the council have not gritted roads around here, so over the last few weeks we've had major arterial roads closed due to the ice, people stranded on the A3 overnight, emergency overnight accomodation provided for people stuck on the M3 overnight, let alone any local roads, say, to get out of your own road, get to work, get to the shops, and go about normal daily life.

As it starts to melt we will also have the assault of new pot holes (which I bent a scooby wheel on last year).

Over the last 12 months or so we've dealt with floods (only passable by a high car), ice and snow which are easily passable by 4x4 (I include the scoob in this although the wide tyres meant the LC was much better), and many pot holes.

And this is all in leafy green Surrey, home of the unneeded 4x4. However over the last week or so most of the cars out have been 4x4s with other vehicles stuck at home or stuck trying to get up hills.

If the government says 4x4s are unnecessary then they need to ensure driving conditions are such that they genuinely are unnecessary. Instead they fail to grit, fail to clear (although the snow ploughs did come out eventually for the main road), fail to provide local roads with grit buckets so we could at least grit our own roads etc.

And for those who poo poo this, saying "well it's only a few days a year", errr well over the last 12 months it may only have been a few weeks worth of impassable-by-2WD roads but if owning a 4x4 means I can get to the shops, I can get up hills, and I can (potentially) get to the hospital if needed then I'm happy to own one.

So I guess we can carry on financing Gordon with heavy tax (scoob is £440/year despite the fact it sits outside the house doing less than the average mileage) and be sneered at by the enviro-lentalists until it comes time for them to get their shopping in adverse weather.

And yes I know many 2WD cars will make it through if driven sensibly, but few of them have the clearance to get through the floods, to get over kerbs to avoid other abandoned cars, mroe confidence in getting through slippery conditions, and the ability to tow a race car with ease including a boot laden with tools etc.

(apologies for the long post!)

I'm not saying that's the only reason we own one, and in fact it isn't a reason at all (towing, driving in fields and rally stages, the fact i love scoobs) but after the last year or so I would now include it as a reason.

lucky77

I have not missed a days work since all the snow came due to owning a 4x4. Since last Wednesday the local Authority requested that we take charge of refilling all the grit bins in the city and the hand gritting of dangerous roads and footpaths where the gritters cannot venture. We've been working flat out for 7 days and without a 4x4 i couldnt of got to the office to organise any of it. The government are picking up the tab so i suppose ive got my extra tax money back though

lovegroova

The tax isn't simply on 4x4s though is it?

It's on cars with high CO2/km figures.

The government's stated aim is to reduce CO2 emissions, so, that being the case, it makes perfect sense to discourage people from purchasing these types of cars.

It just so happens that a significant amount of cars with high CO2/km figures are heavy 4x4s (as well as ligh S2000s) and so it becomes a media feeding frenzy.

There are plenty of 4x4 options which don't attract high levels of taxation, so it's a bit of a non-issue really.

Other countries have laws requiring the fitment of winter tyres which are far more effective than four wheel drive. Admittedly, we (in the south of England at least) don't generally have prolonged periods of snow and ice, so it's not generally much of a problem and wouldn't require legislation. Even a pair of snow socks for £40 would solve the problem for most folk.

I can't defend our moronic government completely, so am well aware that the high taxation on expensive cars (which generally produce more CO2/km) is a typical class envy ZaNuLabour move.

Mole

As much as I love our "Chelsea Tractor" the real answer to mobilising the UK in winter doesnt lie within 4x4 ownership. WINTER TYRES!!!!!! (A decent winter clearence plan and stockpiles of grit help too )
Bring in a law as in Germany that all cars must be equipped with the right tyres for the weather and if they cause obsruction through use of wrong tyres then issue fines. For the first outright purchase a government subsidy or discount could be in place, from then on in the cost is marginal as all you are doing is spreading the use of your tyre so the summer set would last longer as it would be used less.
If we start to have regular winters again then the cost to businesses and local authourities is going to be huge.
If I had my own business employing large numbers of people I would certainly invest in a load of snow socks for employees and make sure any vans were equipped with winter tyres.
The other thing is that winter tyres are not just for snow, they work well in any cold wet conditions. Lot more comfortable too as they have more rubber

Rapscallion

regarding tax it could be worse - much worse. In Norway new cars are taxed on engine size, BHP, (which is why they like chipping their diesels) and weight.

as a result a brand new M5 for example costs over £200,000!

In Germany you are unisured if you dont have winter tyres when you should.

But as already said the govt spin doctors have used the unpopular image of the chelsea tractor to push new taxbands on the populous. our scenic on the motorway just about does 33 mpg also long as you dont go above 70. thats less than my brother in laws diesel xc90

Starlight

And its a totally arbitrary and rubbish tax based on its current format.

If they truly wanted to tax people for CO2 emissions then the CO2 output must be tied to the actual mileage done to have any meaning at all.

You might have a sports car or 4x4 with a high CO2 figure but if its only a weekend toy or occasional use vehicle how can it have a higher CO2 tax then a reps car with a better CO2 rating but huge mileage making for a higher polluting vehicle

Either tie the tax to the MOT where a mileage check can be carried out to determine the tax level the vehicle needs to pay for the mileage done that year. Clearly then those that do very high mileage would have an incentive to get a very CO2 efficient vehicle to reduce their tax burden.

Makes sense to me