First Off - before I get Pro-Mugen Flames - I do believe that Mugen make great quality products.

Furthermore, i acknowledge that their close links with Honda allow them to start R&D alot earlier than other tuning houses.

Also, clearly their knowledge gained in F1 is invaluable.


HOWEVER.. RIDDLE ME THIS:

Why does Mugen not produce a complete tune up? Whether it be on the F20c or Bseries engines?

That is, all we see are, exhaust, header, ECU, valve springs, aircleaner, gaskets/thermostats/etc.

However, no Cams/Pistons etc..??????

Now before anyone says that "the fact they don't produce such things, means they are useless, cos they are Mugen and know everything" - let me make clear on the B18C series engine which has cam/piston products from Spoon, Toda, Jun etc, these companies have extracted ALOT more power than Mugen has, or has tried to..

It is depressing that a company so rich in resources do not delve further and produce a complete product line. Even in regards to the F20C, SpoonSports have delved much further than Mugen has (That is apart from the unreleased 2.2l stroker kit) - Spoon has pistons/cams etc..

Anyway, Rant is over

 

i may be way off base here, but i don't think mugen competes in the type of racing series (at least not in Japan that i'm aware of) that Spoon participates in. i know the Beams ITR (it kicks ass) uses a lot of mugen parts, i don't think it's a mugen factory car. i do believe the formula 3000 / formula nippon / and even F1? engines are heavily invested by mugen, and that's where they shine - in the "real" racing stuff. GT racing and the stuff we like to do on the streets, on the track, and on the weekends...well, i have to say Spoon, Toda, or JUN are more hardcore when it comes to those type of mods. i'm not aware that mugen offers valve springs (Spoon does) or gaskets (again, Spoon does to increase compression a bit).

another aspect to consider is maybe mugen doesn't want to change too much of the original "spirit" of the car?

 

Mingster,
I thought they have tuned valve springs, for the Integra Type Rs though. I'll have to double check this on the King website.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kibro
[B]Mingster,

 

this is way off the topic - but Mingster - I love the new addition to your sig

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tmkarab
[B]this is way off the topic - but Mingster - I love the new addition to your sig

 

My reference to the valve springs etc were to the Bseries engines.
I guess my point was that even after all this time, that is all they have available for the Bseries.

Yes they do have the valve springs - and teh reason being that the ecu raises the rev limiter - hence requiring the springs to prevent valve float.

I don't doubt that Mugen have the technical ability - however, their Honda market unfortunately is the GT series etc.

Even teh Mugen exhaust compromises on power simply b/c they chose to meet Jasma standards of noise etc.

Well if Toda/Spoon got off their butt and started making some nice cams I would stop complaining (Pity the spoon ones out at themoment improve mid range at the expense of high end - actually lower than stock)

 

though i have problems understanding that sentence, i'm assuming your comment was geared towards the spoon cams? i don't know where you got your info from, but i'd like to see some real dyno charts before confirming that statement (as a NA authorized dealer, i can't get the cams). and if you know how spoon tunes at all (assuming your statement = true), you'll understand that spoon will find a way to make up for that loss in other parts (think about what i always say about spoon's header and exhaust). you really would want to look at mods from a complete perspective, and not single pictures.

"yeah, this cams makes 10HPs, this filter makes 2HPs, this header makes another 12HPs..." does not mean you'll get 24HPs . the cams may have the peak of 10HPs in the middle, the header may have the peak near redline, and the filter may just allow the entire intake/exhaust system to breathe that much better. the whole system works as a whole. think "wa" - japanese word for harmony when you mod your car. throwing parts together that works well by itself doesn't mean they'll work well together.

that's just my take on modifying cars, and not the official position of Spoon Sports North America.

 

Hmm...

Nobody's responded yet.

Okay, I'll try to answer some of your questions.

1. Mugen has not released any engine internal (power producing) parts for the S2000. I don't know the specifics for it, but perhaps the races the S2000 participate in (that Mugen is interested in) do not allow non-OEM parts. A good example of this sort of racing is the Grand Am Cup- which does not allow non-OEM engine internals, but does allow blueprinting. As of this time, NOBODY here has confirmed the increases in power x branded internals make in the F20C. The only internal engine parts Mugen markets to the general public is the baffled oil pan and thermostat.

2. Mugen has an N1 Race ECM for the S2000. Included with it is a schematic for a non-DOT approved race exhaust- something very simple to make IF you are a race team.

3. Mugen sells a hard bushing kit for the S2000. This kit is for racing.

4. Mugen's exhaust is a street legal system. There isn't a big demand for systems that do not meet DOT standards, no matter where you happen to live.

5. The Mugen intake is still the only proven design on the market. The Spoon intake tract is only to feed the stock box- a requirement for the racing Spoon participates in. Mugen actually designed this intake for street use- clearly an gesture to show customers what actually works for intake designs on the S2000- something that is so effective that they had to make it in spite of the fact it isn't race legal. So far not too many other companies have made the power across the rpm range that Mugen makes- and that is what counts.

6. Although you may show certain companies producing parts for the B series motor, frankly, Mugen is a race oriented company, and the parts from the companies mentioned do not meet specifications (non-OEM) for the racing Mugen participates in. If these companies can build such great products, why is Mugen the only brand name under the hoods of other companies' cars? I only see Mugen equipped cars winning in endurance and sprint racing... It may say Sxxxn on the outside of the car, but if you look under the hood... At this time, NOBODY in the Grand Am Cup uses Sxxxn/Txxa/Jxn/etc. products- but a majority of the Honda/Acura race teams use Mugen products. Both are readily available on the market- and only one team in the Grand Am Cup (King Motorsports) is "sponsored" by Mugen/King. The same goes for the Speedvision Cup. Ask Jerry Zimmerman (crew chief) what ECU they use in the Realtime ITRs...

I hope this helps you understand the effort Mugen makes in deciding what products they make and market to John Q. Public. And sorry this is so long...

 

this is an excellent post. it's great to see such intelligent responses.