Mods, maintenance and your warranty
05-16-2004, 08:26 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Ever since I joined S2KI, I've been concerned about the problems people have had with warranty issues. I get some PMs from folks looking for advice and I always think that the person might have had better luck if they had taken a few steps in advance of going to the dealer. I have read a number of posts and threads that give well meaning advice that probably won't work in the real world. I thought I'd start a thread to try to cover some of the basics to protect yourself and your rights under your warranty. As with all my other legally related posts, please remember that I am not your attorney and I do not have an attorney client relationship with you. This is just a general discussion of legal issues that I am sharing with you as a member of this community. If your car is outside warranty, this isn't really an important issue for you, except to the extent that something you put in you car is the cause of a failure.
First off, there are multiple sources of warranty law. The three I will discuss in this thread are Federal, state and contract. The Federal law is the Magnusun-Moss warranty act and the federal regulations promulgated under it. An excellent discussion of the act and the regs can be found here: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspub...bs/warranty.htm Of course, I do not represent that this site is up to date. It is important to note that the act prohibits manufacturers from disclaiming warranties simply because you installed parts yourself, or used parts other than those manufactured by the manufacturer. However, if the work was done improperly, or the parts were of inferior quality and caused the loss, the warranty can be disclaimed.
The second source of warranty law is your local state statutes, regulations and case law. This varies greatly from state to state, and I cannot hope to cover the 50 states here. It is important for you to know however, that you local state law will usually be the source for information about what method you will use to resolve any dispute with your dealer. I recomend you look at your home state's official web site. These usually provide information about consumer warranties, including a reference to the statues and regulations that apply, and where applicable, a description of your states dispute resolution system.
The third source is your contract with Honda. Under our federal system, we are all free to contract and the contract is a binding agreement that describes and limits our rights and obligations in the relationship. However, the contract is subject to both state and federal law. If the government dictates certain warranty terms, the contract cannot waive those terms UNLESS the statute in question allows the parties to waive or modify the statutory terms. Statutes that allow this usually require the manufacturer to set the waiver or limitation out in writing, and you may see language in your warranty that was written in for just this purpose.
As we know from previous threads, Honda has issued a warranty that can be avoided if damage is caused by abuse, improper work by a non-Honda certified shop or non-honda parts. In other words, like other manufacturers, Honda takes advantage of the exception in the Magnuson-Moss act. Whenever you mod your car or do your own maintenance or use non Honda parts, you are running some risk of facing a challenge from the dealer if you subsequently submit a warranty claim. Many people believe that Honda must prove that your work, mod or part was the cause of the failure for which you seek a covered repair. While this is true in principle, in practice Honda's burden is not as great as you may think. If you have a failure and the part or system that failed was not serviced by a Honda dealer, or involves a non Honda part, then a red flag goes up and Honda will question proper service and part quality. Even though Honda must prove the work or non-Honda part caused the damage, at this point, for all practical purposes the burden of proof is on you. Honda will pont to the non-certified work or part and say "we think this caused it, why should we pay?" You can yell "prove it" at the top of your lungs, but unless you want to proceed to court or arbitration, how are you going to make the dealer do the work?
Some of the following tips should help you with that process and I ask you to consider these thoughts whenever you are working on your car or buying parts for it.
1. Understand the part you are buying. What does it do, and what does it affect? The easy example is the aftermarket oil filter. It filters the oil and affects the engine. We have all seen threads here about dealers rejecting claims because of a non-Honda filter. That one is easy, what about the less obvious? Say you are installing an alarm or a stereo. What systems does that effect? Well, obviously your electrical system. If you have an electrical problem after you install a stereo system with a sub and some amps, you may be facing a warranty challenge. If Honda claims your brake problem is caused by the stereo, you should know enough about your stereo system and how it was wired to dispute that claim. BUT, if for some reason your new stereo wiring is impacting your ABS...well, you can see how complicated this can get.
2. Understand Honda's requirements for the part or the work. This may sound like item one above, but it is different. Oil and other liquids in your car are a good example. Your manual tells you not only what weight of oil to use, but the industry standards that the oil and other liquids should satisfy. Be sure that whatever you put in meets Honda's stated requirements. If you have to loosen a bolt, find out if it has a torque requirement and be sure to re-torque it. The hard part involves parts for which there are no written specs or standards. Careful research will help you here, but there are no gaurantees. Be careful what you buy and install.
3. Please keep records! Sounds easy, but do you do it? If you keep written files, just start a folder for your S2000. Put every receipt right in there. If you participate in a buy with a number of friends, make copies of the invoice for all the participants. Write the mileage on the receipt when you do the work, or keep a notebook in the file with the dates and mileage at which the work was done. I even keep containers and boxes for some of my parts to show the manufacturer and the specs for what I bought.
4. Buy the Helms or equivelant manual. When asked how you did the work, it sure is nice to able to say you did it by the book. Check the book for torque specs when you do the work, and follow them. Replace all "one-time" use parts like crush washers.
5. Follow the maintenance schedule. Don't overlook the "inspection" items. Make a little check list and check it off to establish that you did look at all of the things that the maintenance book requires. Educate yourself as to what you are looking for so you can explain why the part appeared fine when you looked at it. Just saying the brakes looked "good" may not cut it. Sounds a lot better if you say the rotors were not scored, didn't show any signs of overheating or cracking and the brake pads showed three quarters of their original thickness. The wheels turned freely when spun and the brakes released completely when you removed your foot from the pedal.
6. Even if the dealer does all your work, keep all your receipts. The dealer's records may not be accurate or complete, and this problem can become severe if you move and go to a different dealer. Read your receipts and make sure all the work is listed. I have personally experienced poor and inacurate reporting at several dealerships such that six months later the very dealer who did my work is claiming I didn't do the maintenance.
7. Read and understand your warranty. Use the language of the warranty in discussions with your dealer.
If you do all of these things, when the dealer questions you, you will be able to explain quickly and reasonably what you did and why it isn't a warranty concern. The dealer will see you are well prepared and will certainly give your claim all due consideration before making a determination. Next I'll discuss what to do if the claim is rejected. As always, I hope others will join in in this discussion.
Bill
First off, there are multiple sources of warranty law. The three I will discuss in this thread are Federal, state and contract. The Federal law is the Magnusun-Moss warranty act and the federal regulations promulgated under it. An excellent discussion of the act and the regs can be found here: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspub...bs/warranty.htm Of course, I do not represent that this site is up to date. It is important to note that the act prohibits manufacturers from disclaiming warranties simply because you installed parts yourself, or used parts other than those manufactured by the manufacturer. However, if the work was done improperly, or the parts were of inferior quality and caused the loss, the warranty can be disclaimed.
The second source of warranty law is your local state statutes, regulations and case law. This varies greatly from state to state, and I cannot hope to cover the 50 states here. It is important for you to know however, that you local state law will usually be the source for information about what method you will use to resolve any dispute with your dealer. I recomend you look at your home state's official web site. These usually provide information about consumer warranties, including a reference to the statues and regulations that apply, and where applicable, a description of your states dispute resolution system.
The third source is your contract with Honda. Under our federal system, we are all free to contract and the contract is a binding agreement that describes and limits our rights and obligations in the relationship. However, the contract is subject to both state and federal law. If the government dictates certain warranty terms, the contract cannot waive those terms UNLESS the statute in question allows the parties to waive or modify the statutory terms. Statutes that allow this usually require the manufacturer to set the waiver or limitation out in writing, and you may see language in your warranty that was written in for just this purpose.
As we know from previous threads, Honda has issued a warranty that can be avoided if damage is caused by abuse, improper work by a non-Honda certified shop or non-honda parts. In other words, like other manufacturers, Honda takes advantage of the exception in the Magnuson-Moss act. Whenever you mod your car or do your own maintenance or use non Honda parts, you are running some risk of facing a challenge from the dealer if you subsequently submit a warranty claim. Many people believe that Honda must prove that your work, mod or part was the cause of the failure for which you seek a covered repair. While this is true in principle, in practice Honda's burden is not as great as you may think. If you have a failure and the part or system that failed was not serviced by a Honda dealer, or involves a non Honda part, then a red flag goes up and Honda will question proper service and part quality. Even though Honda must prove the work or non-Honda part caused the damage, at this point, for all practical purposes the burden of proof is on you. Honda will pont to the non-certified work or part and say "we think this caused it, why should we pay?" You can yell "prove it" at the top of your lungs, but unless you want to proceed to court or arbitration, how are you going to make the dealer do the work?
Some of the following tips should help you with that process and I ask you to consider these thoughts whenever you are working on your car or buying parts for it.
1. Understand the part you are buying. What does it do, and what does it affect? The easy example is the aftermarket oil filter. It filters the oil and affects the engine. We have all seen threads here about dealers rejecting claims because of a non-Honda filter. That one is easy, what about the less obvious? Say you are installing an alarm or a stereo. What systems does that effect? Well, obviously your electrical system. If you have an electrical problem after you install a stereo system with a sub and some amps, you may be facing a warranty challenge. If Honda claims your brake problem is caused by the stereo, you should know enough about your stereo system and how it was wired to dispute that claim. BUT, if for some reason your new stereo wiring is impacting your ABS...well, you can see how complicated this can get.
2. Understand Honda's requirements for the part or the work. This may sound like item one above, but it is different. Oil and other liquids in your car are a good example. Your manual tells you not only what weight of oil to use, but the industry standards that the oil and other liquids should satisfy. Be sure that whatever you put in meets Honda's stated requirements. If you have to loosen a bolt, find out if it has a torque requirement and be sure to re-torque it. The hard part involves parts for which there are no written specs or standards. Careful research will help you here, but there are no gaurantees. Be careful what you buy and install.
3. Please keep records! Sounds easy, but do you do it? If you keep written files, just start a folder for your S2000. Put every receipt right in there. If you participate in a buy with a number of friends, make copies of the invoice for all the participants. Write the mileage on the receipt when you do the work, or keep a notebook in the file with the dates and mileage at which the work was done. I even keep containers and boxes for some of my parts to show the manufacturer and the specs for what I bought.
4. Buy the Helms or equivelant manual. When asked how you did the work, it sure is nice to able to say you did it by the book. Check the book for torque specs when you do the work, and follow them. Replace all "one-time" use parts like crush washers.
5. Follow the maintenance schedule. Don't overlook the "inspection" items. Make a little check list and check it off to establish that you did look at all of the things that the maintenance book requires. Educate yourself as to what you are looking for so you can explain why the part appeared fine when you looked at it. Just saying the brakes looked "good" may not cut it. Sounds a lot better if you say the rotors were not scored, didn't show any signs of overheating or cracking and the brake pads showed three quarters of their original thickness. The wheels turned freely when spun and the brakes released completely when you removed your foot from the pedal.
6. Even if the dealer does all your work, keep all your receipts. The dealer's records may not be accurate or complete, and this problem can become severe if you move and go to a different dealer. Read your receipts and make sure all the work is listed. I have personally experienced poor and inacurate reporting at several dealerships such that six months later the very dealer who did my work is claiming I didn't do the maintenance.
7. Read and understand your warranty. Use the language of the warranty in discussions with your dealer.
If you do all of these things, when the dealer questions you, you will be able to explain quickly and reasonably what you did and why it isn't a warranty concern. The dealer will see you are well prepared and will certainly give your claim all due consideration before making a determination. Next I'll discuss what to do if the claim is rejected. As always, I hope others will join in in this discussion.
Bill
05-17-2004, 04:40 AM
#4
Thread Starter
Thanks Steve, thanks Scott. I hope to have more detailed information soon and an in depth discussion of the dispute resolution process. Many on this board have experience with this problem and I hope they share their own experiences, as well as tips about what they may have done differently.
05-17-2004, 09:23 AM
#7
Great post, Bill.
While you're up at the podium, can you clarify another issue that has often been brought up?
Let's say someone has a defective condition that falls under the "grey" area of warranty coverage. If a company honors a warranty for a particular defective condition for one party, does another party with the same defective condition and circumstances have the same rights to get it covered?
While you're up at the podium, can you clarify another issue that has often been brought up?
Let's say someone has a defective condition that falls under the "grey" area of warranty coverage. If a company honors a warranty for a particular defective condition for one party, does another party with the same defective condition and circumstances have the same rights to get it covered?
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05-17-2004, 09:58 AM
#8
Thread Starter
[QUOTE]Originally posted by slalom44
Great post, Bill.
Great post, Bill.
05-17-2004, 09:59 AM
#9
Thread Starter
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xviper
A very worthwhile thread.
A very worthwhile thread.
