A few weeks ago there were a few questions voiced about the new MTF from Amsoil. I contacted Amsoil's Technical Products Manager for Drivetrain & Power Transmissions with questions relating to the use of the fluid in the S2000. I specifically asked if the product was suitable for the carbon synchros in the '04 and newer S2000 transmissions. This was not an issue for '03 and newer transmissions because the fluid is perfectly safe for yellow metals. His response was pretty comprehensive and gave a few other examples of transmissions using carbon/carbon synchros. Amsoil has also recently produced a 75W90 transmission fluid (MTG) for use in higher horsepower applications. He mentions this in his reply as well. I hope this clears up any questions. Here's his response.


"In response to your inquiry, the carbon/carbon synchromesh systems in transmissions are the same for all transmissions (carbon/carbon is carbon/carbon). New venture and Tremec manufacturer transmissions with both carbon/carbon synchros and synchros with yellow metals. They manufacturer the same transmissions with options for both carbon/carbon or yellow metal synchros. Both manufacturers have stated that they recommend the same oil regardless of the synchro composition. They only recommend different oil types and viscosities when horsepower is increased, as is the case with the T56 transmission, the oil recommendation changes from a 5W-30 synchromesh fluid (AMSOIL MTF) to a 75W-90 GL-4 gear lube (AMSOIL MTG). AMSOIL recommends the MTF as a direct replacement for GM synchromesh fluid specification # 12345349. The GM fluid is a semi-synthetic and AMSOIL MTF is a full synthetic. This difference alone can provide wear reductions without the use of thicker horsepower robbing fluids.

To address "the big question" AMSOIL warranties the transmission as a whole not exclusive of the synchros. The MTF is recommended for the Honda manual transmissions and AMSOIL will warranty the transmission from any oil related failure. AMSOIL will not warranty the transmission if abuse is determined. This is no different than any other oil manufacturer or auto manufacturer and is the standard product warranty used in by all business. Your question is can AMSOIL MTF be used in Honda manual transmissions if carbon/carbon synchros are used. Yes, transmission manufacturers do not recommend different oils when carbon/carbon synchros are used.

Thank you again for the opportunity to respond to your concerns. As always, please feel free to contact us again if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

- name deleted -
(Amsoil's corporate policy is not to get directly involved in forum discussions. I was given permission to post his response to my questions in this forum as long as I did not provide his name directly)

STLE/CLS
Technical Products Manager
Drivetrain & Power Transmissions
AMSOIL Inc.
AMSOIL Building
Superior, WI. 54880
Phone: 715-392-7101 ext. 275
Fax: 715-392-3097"


Once again, I hope this helps clears up some of the questions about Amsoil's MTF & MTG.

 

The Amsoil website lists this fluid as a direct replacement for Honda MTF and GM Synchromesh Friction Modified (GM part number 12377916) as well as many other applications.

The U.S. retail price listed on the site is $7.05 per bottle, or $6.95 per bottle if you buy a case of 12 ($83.40 per case).

Many on this site have been getting ripped off by AC Delco and GM dealers, paying as much as $20 per bottle for GMSMFM. The lowest I could get GMSMFM in the past was approximately $9.35 per quart.

Here's the website for more info:

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mtf.aspx

 

...interesting. Any 00-01 owners using this and liking it? I had planned on using GMSMFM, but this sounds promising as well.

 

Sounds promising, but I'll wait for someone else to try it.

 

The question isn't so much "will it work?", but more of "are there any benefits to using it?"

The GM fluid gives a very definitive difference in shift feel and effort that other fluids do not.

 

Amsoil's MTF is listed as a direct replacement for GMSMFM. I think it goes without saying it will perform as well or better than GMSMFM. Its friction modifier package is designed to provide the same shift characteristics as GMSMFM.

Not only is it listed as a direct GMSMFM replacement, it's listed as a direct replacement for Genuine Honda MTF. This is likely the most important benefit, and here's why:
From a warranty standpoint, if you have a transmission failure and you're using GMSMFM (or Honda can show you weren't using the OEM fluid, or not using a product specifically manufactured to replace the OEM fluid), Honda has solid legal grounds not to honor the warranty - and very likely would not.
GMSMFM is not listed as a recommended or suitable transmission fluid for Honda products - by either Honda or GM. Additionally - who here believes GM would warranty your S2000 transmission against oil related failures while using GMSMFM?
Nevertheless, GMSMFM has worked well in many S2000s that have had shifting issues. That's been a fantastic discovery for the S2000 community. However, you as the customer shoulder all the liability in its use.
One last note on the warranty issue; Amsoil provides a warranty against oil related failures for their MTF, as with pretty much every oil product they sell (with one or two exceptions used in race specific applications). That's double coverage.

How about quality and reputation? Easy. Amsoil's products are among the finest oil products in the world. You probably can't find better products on the market, regardless of price. The biggest complaint against Amsoil is you can't find it at your local parts store.

On the question of longevity (especially during track events) ... one of the few complaints against GMSMFM is that while it lasts longer than Honda MTF, it still seems to break down relatively fast. I've used GMSMFM in both my stock '03 transmission, and the '04 transmission that I bought from the Hard Top Guy (works better with 4.57 gears). Before I stored my car (I'm overseas in the Middle East for 30 months), I had to change GMSMFM about every engine oil change due to its apparent break down.
Amsoil is a full synthetic and will likely last much longer than GMSMFM. This and the added wear reduction benefits of a high quality full synthetic - you really can't go wrong. You're not going to hurt your car by trying this fluid!

Finally (and most important to some on this forum) - COST. As I posted before, Amsoil MTF is significantly cheaper than GMSMFM. It costs about the same as Honda MTF. Go figure, a better oil for less money.

To sum it all up:
1. Shift characteristics similar to or better than GMSMFM
2. It won't void the factory Honda warranty - it's a direct Honda replacement
3. Amsoil's legendary quality, reputation and warranty
4. Full synthetic
5. Longer service life
6. Lower initial, and long-term costs

Sounds good to me! If I had my car with me overseas, it would already have the Amsoil MTF installed.

 

[QUOTE=brent_strong,Nov 28 2005, 05:17 AM]...interesting.

 

This also has to be said ... because I know it'll come up at some point - as it has in GMSMFM discussions:
If your transmission has suffered several severe grinds (as in the infamous 1-2 grind - or you simply abuse the hell out of your car), you have very likely damaged your synchros - and no fluid in the world will fix that. As with everything else in warranties - no manufacturer will cover damage caused by apparent abuse. Amsoil MTF may lessen the severity of preexisting problems, but it won't eliminate old wounds all together.

 

I have been using Redline MTL for around 8 thousand miles with excellent results in terms of no "notchiness"exept when very cold, and no grinding (which is usually due to "operator error" anyway). I may go to Amsoil next time as I like their products. Redline is much easier to obtain, however.

 

[QUOTE=svatne,Nov 29 2005, 02:50 PM] I have been using Redline MTL for around 8 thousand miles with excellent results in terms of no "notchiness"exept when very cold, and no grinding (which is usually due to "operator error" anyway).