AP2 consuming oil - engine teardown
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AP2 consuming oil - engine teardown
I bought my red ap2 @ 23k last spring. I noticed after a couple of weeks that my oil was unusually low. After that I kept a close eye on my oil and noticed that I was consuming an unusually large amount of oil. I wasn't sure how much but I knew that it wasn't normal.
I then brought my car to the dealer. The recommended an oil consumption test. The test showed that I was consuming about .7-1 quart of oil every 1k miles. I immediately became concerned and asked the service rep if I should be concerned. He told me that 1 quart every 1k miles was "normal". I didn't buy it and we agreed to continue tracking the oil consumption. I went back 2 more times and yeilded simliar consumption numbers, however, i was adding a little bit of oil myself because I was too lazy to go back to the dealer EVERYTIME i needed oil. At one point during this whole fiasco they bore scoped my engine and found nothing unusual. Anyway, the next time I go back I find out that my service rep no longer works there.
Now I'm pissed because the new service rep wants to start doing oil consumption tests all over again. I agree to continue because I want to solve this issue. I come back the next time and they take my car in for a compression and leakdown test. Again, I was consuming about 1qt every 1k. I don't remember my exact compression numbers (wet and dry) but they were in the 170psi range +/- about 10psi depending on the cylinder. My leakdown results were the following
#1 5%
#2 12%
#3 5
#4 7%
I immediately became concerned about #2 and called asked them what an acceptable range was for leakdown. Of course (like with the oil consumption), I was not given a completely straight answer so I called honda myself to ask them the SPEC. I mean, this is a major car company with very intelligent engineers working for them. They must have specifications for acceptable leakdown, right? Wrong. At least the people i talked to on the phone did not know. The only thing I was able to get out of honda was that 1qt every 1k was normal, especially on my car.
Anyway, I proceeded to go back to the dealership again and the next time they did an engine flush using some sort of detergent. Then they changed my oil two more times that day to make sure that the "soap" was all out of the engine. I was told that I would have to come back to the dealer again to check for oil comsumption. At this point it's about 3 months later and at this time I have about 28.5k on my car. As you can see, I am a fairly patient person.
After the detergent flush I came back (and added NO OIL as i was instructed) and they had to add 1.7 QUARTS of oil to my engine after about 1k miles. I then asked them what the next step would be and they filled me up with oil again and told me to come back when it got low. I came back about 400 miles later and they had to add 1qt to get my back to full. Keep in mind that this entire time my engine is running great, no sounds, great gas mileage (27h/22c), and lots of power.
Also keep in mind that i'm a second owner and I've been reading these boards for a while and I'm terrified of what could be wrong with my engine. I'm worried that if there is something very wrong that my warranty will not cover it.
Anyway, so ill continue. At this point i was approached by my service rep and one of the mechanics. They said at this point they would like to teardown my engine and look for the issue. They told me that there was nothing else that they could do to diagnose the source of the oil consumption. They also said that if my issue was due to abuse that it would cost 1200 in labor just to take my engine apart and reassemble it, let alone any parts and labor to fix the problem. I decided to sleep on it and i took my bleeding s2k home.
Over the next week I did a little dianostic work (checked hose coming from pcv valve for oil, etc.) and found nothing. During the process I was in a driveway that was EXTREMELY steep. I started my car on flat ground and a puff of bluish smoke came out. Then when i went up the driveway under heavy load (this driveway is VERY steep) my car was blowing oil. A friend suggested that it was probably a valve guide because i had a puff of smoke right at start up.
The next day, i brought my car in for the teardown and crossed my fingers.
The Good News: I got a call today from the dealership. They said that my cylinder walls looked good and everthing looked fine with NO signs of abuse . However, they said that they found worn/defective valve guides on my #4 cylinder and that they were going to order a new head assembly ($3800 on honda.com) and install it. oh, and did i mention, the WARRANTY will cover it!
This completely made sense because as I was going up the steep driveway my car pooled oil near the #4 cylinder and that it why we noticed the oil burining.
The Better News (for everyone): i went up to the dealer today and took about 6 or 7 pictures with my camera. I can post all of them here as soon as i get home. I hope you enjoyed the story and hopefully if anyone is having similar problems they can learn from this in some way.
I'll post the pictures later. If you have any questions just let me know.
I then brought my car to the dealer. The recommended an oil consumption test. The test showed that I was consuming about .7-1 quart of oil every 1k miles. I immediately became concerned and asked the service rep if I should be concerned. He told me that 1 quart every 1k miles was "normal". I didn't buy it and we agreed to continue tracking the oil consumption. I went back 2 more times and yeilded simliar consumption numbers, however, i was adding a little bit of oil myself because I was too lazy to go back to the dealer EVERYTIME i needed oil. At one point during this whole fiasco they bore scoped my engine and found nothing unusual. Anyway, the next time I go back I find out that my service rep no longer works there.
Now I'm pissed because the new service rep wants to start doing oil consumption tests all over again. I agree to continue because I want to solve this issue. I come back the next time and they take my car in for a compression and leakdown test. Again, I was consuming about 1qt every 1k. I don't remember my exact compression numbers (wet and dry) but they were in the 170psi range +/- about 10psi depending on the cylinder. My leakdown results were the following
#1 5%
#2 12%
#3 5
#4 7%
I immediately became concerned about #2 and called asked them what an acceptable range was for leakdown. Of course (like with the oil consumption), I was not given a completely straight answer so I called honda myself to ask them the SPEC. I mean, this is a major car company with very intelligent engineers working for them. They must have specifications for acceptable leakdown, right? Wrong. At least the people i talked to on the phone did not know. The only thing I was able to get out of honda was that 1qt every 1k was normal, especially on my car.
Anyway, I proceeded to go back to the dealership again and the next time they did an engine flush using some sort of detergent. Then they changed my oil two more times that day to make sure that the "soap" was all out of the engine. I was told that I would have to come back to the dealer again to check for oil comsumption. At this point it's about 3 months later and at this time I have about 28.5k on my car. As you can see, I am a fairly patient person.
After the detergent flush I came back (and added NO OIL as i was instructed) and they had to add 1.7 QUARTS of oil to my engine after about 1k miles. I then asked them what the next step would be and they filled me up with oil again and told me to come back when it got low. I came back about 400 miles later and they had to add 1qt to get my back to full. Keep in mind that this entire time my engine is running great, no sounds, great gas mileage (27h/22c), and lots of power.
Also keep in mind that i'm a second owner and I've been reading these boards for a while and I'm terrified of what could be wrong with my engine. I'm worried that if there is something very wrong that my warranty will not cover it.
Anyway, so ill continue. At this point i was approached by my service rep and one of the mechanics. They said at this point they would like to teardown my engine and look for the issue. They told me that there was nothing else that they could do to diagnose the source of the oil consumption. They also said that if my issue was due to abuse that it would cost 1200 in labor just to take my engine apart and reassemble it, let alone any parts and labor to fix the problem. I decided to sleep on it and i took my bleeding s2k home.
Over the next week I did a little dianostic work (checked hose coming from pcv valve for oil, etc.) and found nothing. During the process I was in a driveway that was EXTREMELY steep. I started my car on flat ground and a puff of bluish smoke came out. Then when i went up the driveway under heavy load (this driveway is VERY steep) my car was blowing oil. A friend suggested that it was probably a valve guide because i had a puff of smoke right at start up.
The next day, i brought my car in for the teardown and crossed my fingers.
The Good News: I got a call today from the dealership. They said that my cylinder walls looked good and everthing looked fine with NO signs of abuse . However, they said that they found worn/defective valve guides on my #4 cylinder and that they were going to order a new head assembly ($3800 on honda.com) and install it. oh, and did i mention, the WARRANTY will cover it!
This completely made sense because as I was going up the steep driveway my car pooled oil near the #4 cylinder and that it why we noticed the oil burining.
The Better News (for everyone): i went up to the dealer today and took about 6 or 7 pictures with my camera. I can post all of them here as soon as i get home. I hope you enjoyed the story and hopefully if anyone is having similar problems they can learn from this in some way.
I'll post the pictures later. If you have any questions just let me know.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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All Torn Apart!
Block
Close up, notice the #4 cylinder piston (far left) is very charred on top. that is from all of the oil I was burning.
Old Head
Under Side of old head. You can clearly see how black the underside is near the #4 intake and exaust valves
Close up!
Valves/Retainers
Block
Close up, notice the #4 cylinder piston (far left) is very charred on top. that is from all of the oil I was burning.
Old Head
Under Side of old head. You can clearly see how black the underside is near the #4 intake and exaust valves
Close up!
Valves/Retainers
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Bet you can't wait to get rid of that rental car.
Kinda makes me regret suggesting the S2K; hondas have always been so reliable for me... Hopefully this will be the last of the issue. The blue on startup seemed like valve guides, but the oil burning when heading up the driveway still makes me wonder if it isn't rings. Guess we'll see next week.
Kinda makes me regret suggesting the S2K; hondas have always been so reliable for me... Hopefully this will be the last of the issue. The blue on startup seemed like valve guides, but the oil burning when heading up the driveway still makes me wonder if it isn't rings. Guess we'll see next week.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: las vegas
id say, do an oil change, and put in some valvoline 10/30. take it out, and run it in 6th gear at about 140 for about 5 minutes straight. youll be happy with the results. 
as for now, im pretty sure your issue is fixed, but with those leakdown numbers, your rings need some cleanup. i have less than 2% leakdown on all 4 of mine.
as for now, im pretty sure your issue is fixed, but with those leakdown numbers, your rings need some cleanup. i have less than 2% leakdown on all 4 of mine.
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S2oooNvegas: Yes, my rings may need some cleanup. However, when honda did the leakdown test they said they heard air coming from my intake manifold. Therefore, if my valves/seals were a little leaky then the new head will improve my leak rate.
