The Suspension Bush FAQ
03-19-2008, 11:19 AM
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The Suspension Bush FAQ
The Definitive FAQ on Suspension Bushes and Bolts!
The Problem:
The suspension arms on the S2000 are attached to the body with bolts and �metalastic� bushes. This means that there is a rubber bush with a metal sleeve in the middle that the bolts pass through. These bolts are not greased in the factory, so when they are subjected to damp and road salt the bolts seize into the sleeve.
There is also a problem with the front castor/compliance bush, which starts to split after hard use.
Honda will not sell you the bushes separately, only a full suspension arm. This will cost over �350 before fitting.
What does this mean to me?:
This all becomes a problem when you need your suspension geometry set up. The bolts will not move and you won�t be able to adjust the suspension. Also, if you decide to change one of your arms it can take hours to remove, as it will need to be cut out.
Changing the front arm for a split castor/compliance bush can also be a problem if the arm needs to be cut off.
Track Control arms and anti-roll bar links also seize, meaning increased cost when replacing arms.
What preventative measures can I take to stop this happening?:
The best thing you can do is to get all the adjustment and castor bolts removed coated in copper slip/grease and refitted. You will need to perform a geometry set up after this.
It is also recommended that you spray all the bolts liberally with Plusgas or WD40 prior to having your bolts checked, as this will help free them off. However, if they are badly seized inside the sleeve - this may not make any difference
One or both of my Castor Bushes are split, what are the options for this?
A split front castor bush can cause MOT failure. These bushes seem to have a limited life of around 8years/90k miles.
As mentioned before, Honda will not supply you any bushes, however castor bushes (also called Fr compliance bushes) can be bought from Spoon or Mugen relatively cheaply - �40 should get you a set delivered.
Because these bushes are different to the Honda bush, you must replace both front castor bushes.
Assuming that your suspension arms can be easily removed, this job should take around 2 hours + a geometry set up.
Please Note that the castor bushes are directional. There are arrows on the bushes. Use a punch to mark where the original bushes are pointing before removal.
What about upper suspension arms � any problems there?
The upper arms have splined bolts, which don�t tend to seize. There are no adjusting bolts on the upper arms so they are generally left alone. A seized upper arm can stop your suspension from performing properly.
What is the easiest way to find out if I have seized bolts?:
The only way to check is to get the bolts removed, greased and put back in with a suspension geometry. Expect to pay �150-�200 for this.
Please Note: there is no way to tell the condition of these bolts without taking them out.
If I was buying from a dealer I would insist that this was done.
When buying a new car, I�d do my best to get this greasing done as part of the PDI.
My car is driving fine, I don�t need a geometry done, why should I get this work done?:
These cars are very sensitive to geometry and do drift out on our poor potholed surfaces. If your car is under 3 years old, the chances are that your bolts will still be ok � you will save yourself a huge amount of money in the future and improve your chances of quick, trouble-free resale if you get this done now. �200 very well spent IMO. Expect to spend anything in the region of �1000-�3000 to correct this problem in the future.
If your car is older, and has never had a geo, there is a very good chance you will have problems, although some MY2000 cars have recently been given a clean bill of health.
OK � so I�ve had my bolts checked and I have seized bolt/bolts � what are my options?:
Option 1) Replace your seized arms with new Honda parts.
Budget �350 per arm, �10 per bolt and at least 2hours labour to remove arm fit arm and then �100+ for Geometry. Anti-roll bar links, should you need them, are �45 each.
All parts prices are +VAT
These components are considerably cheaper from the US, they are heavy though so make sure you check shipping costs.
Option 2) Replace your arms with second hand parts from a breaker.
Budget around �100 per arm + other costs above.
Please note that 99-03 arms are different from 04> arms, and that the JDM arms will need a hole and thread drilled into the arm to hold the headlamp leveller sensor.
Option 3) Remove your arms and replace the Honda bushes.
There are a few options here � Spoon, Mugen and Powerflex.
Spoon and Mugen bushes are very similar in design to the Honda bushes - rubber with a metal sleeve - but harder. They will cost you in the region of �500 for a set.
Powerflex bushes cost around �300, these bushes are polyurethane and you will also need to budget to buy Spoon or Mugen castor bushes, as Powerflex do not make these.
You then need to remove all your arms � all 8 arms/wishbones and the 2 track control arms - and fit the new bushes with a 10 tonne press. Realistically, you�re looking at a minimum 8 hours labour to do this, depending on how badly your current arms are seized.
Please Note that the castor bushes are directional. There are arrows on the bushes. Use a punch to mark where the original bushes are pointing before removal.
Can I replace these bushes myself?:
Thanks to eSem for providing this excellent write up...
It is easier if you buy a complete set of arms before undertaking this job. At the end of the job you should have the set of arms from your car that can be sold on. It also means that your car doesn't have to be off the road whilst you are preparing the arms.
Removing Arms with seized bolts: Best way I have found to do this is to use either an angle grinder or a reciprocating saw (you can pick one of these up for �40 at your local DIY store and it will save you a *lot* of time). You will find that the saw is the only tool that will allow you access to cut through the seized bolts.
As part of the process of removing the arms you will need to remove the links from the anti-roll bar. These are removed by inserting a 5mm allen key into the end of the bolt to hold it and using a 14mm spanner to losten the bolt. Corrosion in the head can mean that these can be difficult to remove. They can be hack sawed off but they cost �50 each from a dealer to replace.
You also need a reasonable sized ball joint remover to separate the arms. I found a Franklyn one does the job for all joints.
Removing bushes from arms: You will need a 10 tonne press and an angle grinder. I found that some of the bushes were almost impossible to push out the arms unless I first removed the lip with an angle grinder. One of the bushes is 2-piece and has a lip at each end, this took a lot of work with an angle grinder before I could remove it with the press.
The bushes in the upper arms are pushed in from the outside. They need to be removed by pushing from the inside and this is not easy. Need to take care not to twist the arms with the press.
When you have all the bushes removed from the arms it is worthwhile cleaning them up and painting them with an anti-rust paint like POR 15.
Poly bushes can be pushed into the arms without the use of a press. Mugen or Spoon metalic bushes will need a press to insert the bushes into the arms.
When replacing the arms you will need to replace the bolts that you have had to cut through. Budget �10 per bolt from a dealer. The bolts and sleaves to do both front compliance bushes are ~ �80.
Once you have replaced the arms on your car get booked into your dealer (or equivalent) to get the alignment sorted.
Time estimates:
Removing bushes from arms & Painting - 6hrs.
Removing Arms - 4hrs + 2hrs for each seized bolt.
Replacing arms - 5hrs
Took me around 20hrs to do the whole job with 3 front seized bolts.
Can you recommend a garage that has experience of this and will be able to help?:
Garage-R on this forum offers a very reasonable fixed price bush replacement
www.garage-r.co.uk
Center Gravity: Chris Franklin has seen more S2000 suspension than anyone else! He is probably the UKs foremost expert in suspension tuning for the S2000 and also has good experience of getting acceptable geometry with seized bushes, replacing seized bushes, rebushing arms etc etc. Chris also stocks a large amount of used suspension parts should you have problems.
Chris favours a hands on approach for owners and you will learn a huge amount about the car while you are there.
Based in Atherstone, Warwickshire http://www.centergravity.co.uk/
TGM: A lot of Southern members are using TGM and are coming back with great reports for geometry and sorting out seizures.
Based in Fleet, Hants http://www.tgmsports.co.uk/
Lloyds Honda: Currently working on my car and providing a superb service. I am in conference with the service manager at the moment and hope to be able to organise a fixed price regrease and geometry setup.
Based in Carlisle. http://www.lloydmotors.carlisle-honda.co.uk
Where can I find more technical details about this issue?
AquilaEagle posted this superb account of the full Poly rebush. Good pictures of all the components can be found here https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=484510
Biker1 has an excellent technical write up here:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=262101
The Technical FAQ also has further details about the problem
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301506
The Problem:
The suspension arms on the S2000 are attached to the body with bolts and �metalastic� bushes. This means that there is a rubber bush with a metal sleeve in the middle that the bolts pass through. These bolts are not greased in the factory, so when they are subjected to damp and road salt the bolts seize into the sleeve.
There is also a problem with the front castor/compliance bush, which starts to split after hard use.
Honda will not sell you the bushes separately, only a full suspension arm. This will cost over �350 before fitting.
What does this mean to me?:
This all becomes a problem when you need your suspension geometry set up. The bolts will not move and you won�t be able to adjust the suspension. Also, if you decide to change one of your arms it can take hours to remove, as it will need to be cut out.
Changing the front arm for a split castor/compliance bush can also be a problem if the arm needs to be cut off.
Track Control arms and anti-roll bar links also seize, meaning increased cost when replacing arms.
What preventative measures can I take to stop this happening?:
The best thing you can do is to get all the adjustment and castor bolts removed coated in copper slip/grease and refitted. You will need to perform a geometry set up after this.
It is also recommended that you spray all the bolts liberally with Plusgas or WD40 prior to having your bolts checked, as this will help free them off. However, if they are badly seized inside the sleeve - this may not make any difference
One or both of my Castor Bushes are split, what are the options for this?
A split front castor bush can cause MOT failure. These bushes seem to have a limited life of around 8years/90k miles.
As mentioned before, Honda will not supply you any bushes, however castor bushes (also called Fr compliance bushes) can be bought from Spoon or Mugen relatively cheaply - �40 should get you a set delivered.
Because these bushes are different to the Honda bush, you must replace both front castor bushes.
Assuming that your suspension arms can be easily removed, this job should take around 2 hours + a geometry set up.
Please Note that the castor bushes are directional. There are arrows on the bushes. Use a punch to mark where the original bushes are pointing before removal.
What about upper suspension arms � any problems there?
The upper arms have splined bolts, which don�t tend to seize. There are no adjusting bolts on the upper arms so they are generally left alone. A seized upper arm can stop your suspension from performing properly.
What is the easiest way to find out if I have seized bolts?:
The only way to check is to get the bolts removed, greased and put back in with a suspension geometry. Expect to pay �150-�200 for this.
Please Note: there is no way to tell the condition of these bolts without taking them out.
If I was buying from a dealer I would insist that this was done.
When buying a new car, I�d do my best to get this greasing done as part of the PDI.
My car is driving fine, I don�t need a geometry done, why should I get this work done?:
These cars are very sensitive to geometry and do drift out on our poor potholed surfaces. If your car is under 3 years old, the chances are that your bolts will still be ok � you will save yourself a huge amount of money in the future and improve your chances of quick, trouble-free resale if you get this done now. �200 very well spent IMO. Expect to spend anything in the region of �1000-�3000 to correct this problem in the future.
If your car is older, and has never had a geo, there is a very good chance you will have problems, although some MY2000 cars have recently been given a clean bill of health.
OK � so I�ve had my bolts checked and I have seized bolt/bolts � what are my options?:
Option 1) Replace your seized arms with new Honda parts.
Budget �350 per arm, �10 per bolt and at least 2hours labour to remove arm fit arm and then �100+ for Geometry. Anti-roll bar links, should you need them, are �45 each.
All parts prices are +VAT
These components are considerably cheaper from the US, they are heavy though so make sure you check shipping costs.
Option 2) Replace your arms with second hand parts from a breaker.
Budget around �100 per arm + other costs above.
Please note that 99-03 arms are different from 04> arms, and that the JDM arms will need a hole and thread drilled into the arm to hold the headlamp leveller sensor.
Option 3) Remove your arms and replace the Honda bushes.
There are a few options here � Spoon, Mugen and Powerflex.
Spoon and Mugen bushes are very similar in design to the Honda bushes - rubber with a metal sleeve - but harder. They will cost you in the region of �500 for a set.
Powerflex bushes cost around �300, these bushes are polyurethane and you will also need to budget to buy Spoon or Mugen castor bushes, as Powerflex do not make these.
You then need to remove all your arms � all 8 arms/wishbones and the 2 track control arms - and fit the new bushes with a 10 tonne press. Realistically, you�re looking at a minimum 8 hours labour to do this, depending on how badly your current arms are seized.
Please Note that the castor bushes are directional. There are arrows on the bushes. Use a punch to mark where the original bushes are pointing before removal.
Can I replace these bushes myself?:
Thanks to eSem for providing this excellent write up...
It is easier if you buy a complete set of arms before undertaking this job. At the end of the job you should have the set of arms from your car that can be sold on. It also means that your car doesn't have to be off the road whilst you are preparing the arms.
Removing Arms with seized bolts: Best way I have found to do this is to use either an angle grinder or a reciprocating saw (you can pick one of these up for �40 at your local DIY store and it will save you a *lot* of time). You will find that the saw is the only tool that will allow you access to cut through the seized bolts.
As part of the process of removing the arms you will need to remove the links from the anti-roll bar. These are removed by inserting a 5mm allen key into the end of the bolt to hold it and using a 14mm spanner to losten the bolt. Corrosion in the head can mean that these can be difficult to remove. They can be hack sawed off but they cost �50 each from a dealer to replace.
You also need a reasonable sized ball joint remover to separate the arms. I found a Franklyn one does the job for all joints.
Removing bushes from arms: You will need a 10 tonne press and an angle grinder. I found that some of the bushes were almost impossible to push out the arms unless I first removed the lip with an angle grinder. One of the bushes is 2-piece and has a lip at each end, this took a lot of work with an angle grinder before I could remove it with the press.
The bushes in the upper arms are pushed in from the outside. They need to be removed by pushing from the inside and this is not easy. Need to take care not to twist the arms with the press.
When you have all the bushes removed from the arms it is worthwhile cleaning them up and painting them with an anti-rust paint like POR 15.
Poly bushes can be pushed into the arms without the use of a press. Mugen or Spoon metalic bushes will need a press to insert the bushes into the arms.
When replacing the arms you will need to replace the bolts that you have had to cut through. Budget �10 per bolt from a dealer. The bolts and sleaves to do both front compliance bushes are ~ �80.
Once you have replaced the arms on your car get booked into your dealer (or equivalent) to get the alignment sorted.
Time estimates:
Removing bushes from arms & Painting - 6hrs.
Removing Arms - 4hrs + 2hrs for each seized bolt.
Replacing arms - 5hrs
Took me around 20hrs to do the whole job with 3 front seized bolts.
Can you recommend a garage that has experience of this and will be able to help?:
Garage-R on this forum offers a very reasonable fixed price bush replacement
www.garage-r.co.uk
Center Gravity: Chris Franklin has seen more S2000 suspension than anyone else! He is probably the UKs foremost expert in suspension tuning for the S2000 and also has good experience of getting acceptable geometry with seized bushes, replacing seized bushes, rebushing arms etc etc. Chris also stocks a large amount of used suspension parts should you have problems.
Chris favours a hands on approach for owners and you will learn a huge amount about the car while you are there.
Based in Atherstone, Warwickshire http://www.centergravity.co.uk/
TGM: A lot of Southern members are using TGM and are coming back with great reports for geometry and sorting out seizures.
Based in Fleet, Hants http://www.tgmsports.co.uk/
Lloyds Honda: Currently working on my car and providing a superb service. I am in conference with the service manager at the moment and hope to be able to organise a fixed price regrease and geometry setup.
Based in Carlisle. http://www.lloydmotors.carlisle-honda.co.uk
Where can I find more technical details about this issue?
AquilaEagle posted this superb account of the full Poly rebush. Good pictures of all the components can be found here https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=484510
Biker1 has an excellent technical write up here:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=262101
The Technical FAQ also has further details about the problem
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301506
03-19-2008, 12:27 PM
#2
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Neil loads of pics and write up when I did mine with Chris....
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=484510
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=484510
03-19-2008, 01:18 PM
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Great write ups the pair of you. mines a 2000 and you have both put the shits up me lol. i think ill cheack mine out at the weekend. and see how bad things look up there.
03-19-2008, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by davekelly,Mar 19 2008, 09:18 PM
Great write ups the pair of you. mines a 2000 and you have both put the shits up me lol. i think ill cheack mine out at the weekend. and see how bad things look up there.
Good write up.Davekelly buy some plus gas .
03-19-2008, 01:27 PM
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Neil, you need to point out that if they go the poly-bush route that they have to do all 8 wishbones and 2 control arms (except for the compliance bush) at the same time.
I will add some more stuff tomorrow on how to DIY it.
Looking good.
I will add some more stuff tomorrow on how to DIY it.
Looking good.
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03-19-2008, 02:03 PM
#9
Registered User
There is a way to repair the castor bush if you are struggling to find/buy a new one:
Its not pretty, but functionallity is 100%
I have done this plenty of times and had no problems.
This is definately not one for the brand
s
http://importnut.net/motormount.htm
Obviously it is an engine mount, but the principle is the same
Its not pretty, but functionallity is 100%
I have done this plenty of times and had no problems.
This is definately not one for the brand
shttp://importnut.net/motormount.htm
Obviously it is an engine mount, but the principle is the same