PacNW dyno day - Proflow vs: Stock throttle body (Long)
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,768
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From: Bellevue, WA
Over the last year there has been a great deal of discussion concerning whether the 70mm modified throttle body will net any gains. Dyno days with proflow equipped cars have been inconclusive for gains. Lots of NA owners have reported zero gains while some Forced Induction users have claimed gains, but did not specifically test the modification. For example: Wesmaster reported ~15hp with an exhaust AND a throttle body swap. Because there were two modifications its a fair assesment to call the results inconclusive.
WRS2K arranged for a club day at Carb Connection in Kirkland, Wa on Saturday. We dyno'd three basically stock cars and my Comptech SC'd rig. We contacted JHill (Proflow Design) in the hopes he could bring down a spare stock S2000 throttle body for a bit of the 'ol Pepsi Challenge. JHill installed a Proflow 70mm throttle body on my car back in March, but this was my first opportunity to dyno the car. The plan was to execute three runs with the Proflow Throttle body, swap over to a stock throttle body, and then dyno with the stock throttle body to measure the difference. Fuel ratios etc. were not modified, the idea was to simply acquire a back to back dyno on the same car the same day.
For full disclosure the following are modifications to my car that could potentially have an impact on the dyno results.
MY2000 S2000 - 22,000miles
92 Octane Pump gas - Chevron swill
Comptech Supercharger
Stock Pulley
Comptech ESM
Comptech FMU
Comptech Fuel Pump
Comptech Foam Air Filter - 12,000miles since last cleaning
NGK Platinum Spark Plugs (one range colder than stock)
Catback Exhaust with DynoMax cans
Proflow 70mm Throttle body
Throttle body coolant bypass
Honda Brand Motor Oil
Stock Wheels
Toyo RA1s 245/45/16 - 34lbs pressure
2.5degrees negative camber
3/8" toe in on the rear
A/F ratios and boost levels were monitored with an Autometer guages mounted in an A-Pillar cluster courtesy of Science of Speed. The 02 sensor is stock so I have excluded these readings from the test results. On another note: my Proflow Throttle body originally came off of Moyopoyo's car, the Stock Throttle Body used in our testing is from Jenner's S2000.
Here is the comparison chart with the best renderings of the Proflow and the Stock throttle body runs:
On a side note, I had three back to back runs at 301hp with the Proflow Throttle body. Crazy. These plots included spikes just before redline so the shop took a snapshot of the numbers at 8700rpm to display peak values. Though it would be cool to say I pulled 312hp, it wouldn't be an honest number. So 301 it is...
There was a twenty minute delay between runs to swap the throttle bodies. Ambient Temperature changed 1 degree between the first and final runs. Mercury sank .03. The numbers above are SAE Corrected values.
Aside from a consistent 3-5hp all the way across the entire chart there are fat gains in the midrange and at the top end. IE. 6-8ft/lbs of Torque in the 5-6k RPM band! The horse power peak saw a boost of 13-14hp.
We dyno'd Tedster, Scooby2, and WRS2K as well. Tedster pulled a solid 204 on his MY2000 and Scooby2 and WRS2K pulled 201 and 202 respectively. Scooby2 has an all stock MY2002 and WRS2K has different wheels and an exhaust. Tedster has a MG filter and Proflow throttle body. The differences between these cars contains too many variables to warrant an objective comparison of the Proflow's effect on a mostly stock NA S2000. I've included the following quote of JHill quoting UL to stir the bees though...
[QUOTE]I hear you Ben.
This was UL's qoute:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ultimate lurker
WRS2K arranged for a club day at Carb Connection in Kirkland, Wa on Saturday. We dyno'd three basically stock cars and my Comptech SC'd rig. We contacted JHill (Proflow Design) in the hopes he could bring down a spare stock S2000 throttle body for a bit of the 'ol Pepsi Challenge. JHill installed a Proflow 70mm throttle body on my car back in March, but this was my first opportunity to dyno the car. The plan was to execute three runs with the Proflow Throttle body, swap over to a stock throttle body, and then dyno with the stock throttle body to measure the difference. Fuel ratios etc. were not modified, the idea was to simply acquire a back to back dyno on the same car the same day.
For full disclosure the following are modifications to my car that could potentially have an impact on the dyno results.
MY2000 S2000 - 22,000miles
92 Octane Pump gas - Chevron swill
Comptech Supercharger
Stock Pulley
Comptech ESM
Comptech FMU
Comptech Fuel Pump
Comptech Foam Air Filter - 12,000miles since last cleaning
NGK Platinum Spark Plugs (one range colder than stock)
Catback Exhaust with DynoMax cans
Proflow 70mm Throttle body
Throttle body coolant bypass
Honda Brand Motor Oil
Stock Wheels
Toyo RA1s 245/45/16 - 34lbs pressure
2.5degrees negative camber
3/8" toe in on the rear
A/F ratios and boost levels were monitored with an Autometer guages mounted in an A-Pillar cluster courtesy of Science of Speed. The 02 sensor is stock so I have excluded these readings from the test results. On another note: my Proflow Throttle body originally came off of Moyopoyo's car, the Stock Throttle Body used in our testing is from Jenner's S2000.
Here is the comparison chart with the best renderings of the Proflow and the Stock throttle body runs:
On a side note, I had three back to back runs at 301hp with the Proflow Throttle body. Crazy. These plots included spikes just before redline so the shop took a snapshot of the numbers at 8700rpm to display peak values. Though it would be cool to say I pulled 312hp, it wouldn't be an honest number. So 301 it is...
There was a twenty minute delay between runs to swap the throttle bodies. Ambient Temperature changed 1 degree between the first and final runs. Mercury sank .03. The numbers above are SAE Corrected values.
Aside from a consistent 3-5hp all the way across the entire chart there are fat gains in the midrange and at the top end. IE. 6-8ft/lbs of Torque in the 5-6k RPM band! The horse power peak saw a boost of 13-14hp.
We dyno'd Tedster, Scooby2, and WRS2K as well. Tedster pulled a solid 204 on his MY2000 and Scooby2 and WRS2K pulled 201 and 202 respectively. Scooby2 has an all stock MY2002 and WRS2K has different wheels and an exhaust. Tedster has a MG filter and Proflow throttle body. The differences between these cars contains too many variables to warrant an objective comparison of the Proflow's effect on a mostly stock NA S2000. I've included the following quote of JHill quoting UL to stir the bees though...
[QUOTE]I hear you Ben.
This was UL's qoute:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ultimate lurker
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,294
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From: SW
Hope you enjoyed my throttle body. LOL!
I didn't get to before/after my throttle body, but what is strange is that your dyno run with my stock tb is what I am putting down now with the proflow throttle body. Any ideas? Did I calibrate it wrong or install it wrong or something?
I didn't get to before/after my throttle body, but what is strange is that your dyno run with my stock tb is what I am putting down now with the proflow throttle body. Any ideas? Did I calibrate it wrong or install it wrong or something?
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Joined: Feb 2001
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From: You wish
Jerry, did you monitor coolant temps?
I noticed that you compared runs 1 (with the proflow) and run 7 with the stock TB. Preferably I would like to see run 3 with the Proflow and run 6 with the stock (I assume that would be the third run on each setup).
I always tell people that they have to throw away the first run on any car. Not only is the coolant temp rarely up to spec, but the oil, block, etc. are usually cool too and that leads to higher hp readings.
Generally we see the first run on S2000's that have been sitting for any length of time produce 3-5 hp more than one that is fully warmed up. As temps go up, peak power doesn't drop much, but midrange torque production usually does. Then, as coolant temps go above 195-200F (according to the OBDII sensor) power will consistently drop everywhere as the ECU adds fuel and pulls out timing.
Any way you can show a comparison of the third run for each setup? I think that would be more informative of the real world gains available.
As a note, this was the same problem with the original AEM vs. Injen comparison done by R&D Motorsports. They initially compared the first run with the Injen to the warm run with the AEM which skewed the results. When you looked at the 2nd run for each setup, they were virtually identical.
Finally, when dyno testing cars, it really helps to monitor coolant temps for consistency. We always shoot for 185 +/- a couple of degrees when testing S2Ks and the results are very repeatable. The only car we haven't been able to do that on is Prolene's, which has the Mugen ECU (and no OBDII). However, his car makes more and more power as it gets hotter, so clearly the engine management plays a role there :-)
UL
I noticed that you compared runs 1 (with the proflow) and run 7 with the stock TB. Preferably I would like to see run 3 with the Proflow and run 6 with the stock (I assume that would be the third run on each setup).
I always tell people that they have to throw away the first run on any car. Not only is the coolant temp rarely up to spec, but the oil, block, etc. are usually cool too and that leads to higher hp readings.
Generally we see the first run on S2000's that have been sitting for any length of time produce 3-5 hp more than one that is fully warmed up. As temps go up, peak power doesn't drop much, but midrange torque production usually does. Then, as coolant temps go above 195-200F (according to the OBDII sensor) power will consistently drop everywhere as the ECU adds fuel and pulls out timing.
Any way you can show a comparison of the third run for each setup? I think that would be more informative of the real world gains available.
As a note, this was the same problem with the original AEM vs. Injen comparison done by R&D Motorsports. They initially compared the first run with the Injen to the warm run with the AEM which skewed the results. When you looked at the 2nd run for each setup, they were virtually identical.
Finally, when dyno testing cars, it really helps to monitor coolant temps for consistency. We always shoot for 185 +/- a couple of degrees when testing S2Ks and the results are very repeatable. The only car we haven't been able to do that on is Prolene's, which has the Mugen ECU (and no OBDII). However, his car makes more and more power as it gets hotter, so clearly the engine management plays a role there :-)
UL
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,134
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From: Columbia, MD
jerry,
Far be it for me to be the one to throw a monkey wrech in the works, but...
What effect do you guys think the ECU learning curve will have on this mod? Checking these back to back is a great idea, but would the hp/tq gains become smaller (or even completely disappear) over the next 50-100 miles as the ECU reteaches itself? I'm not saying that's what is going to happen, just wondering if it's a possibility...
Far be it for me to be the one to throw a monkey wrech in the works, but...
What effect do you guys think the ECU learning curve will have on this mod? Checking these back to back is a great idea, but would the hp/tq gains become smaller (or even completely disappear) over the next 50-100 miles as the ECU reteaches itself? I'm not saying that's what is going to happen, just wondering if it's a possibility...
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From: Kirkland
UL,
On the non-FIed cars, we consistently saw an increase in HP/TQ in the 2nd, 3rd runs v. the 1st. I think mine was 198hp 1st run and then I ended up hitting 202.xx on the 2nd and 3rd run. I believe we did not measure coolant temps.
On the non-FIed cars, we consistently saw an increase in HP/TQ in the 2nd, 3rd runs v. the 1st. I think mine was 198hp 1st run and then I ended up hitting 202.xx on the 2nd and 3rd run. I believe we did not measure coolant temps.
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,768
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From: Bellevue, WA
Originally posted by Jenner
Hope you enjoyed my throttle body. LOL!
I didn't get to before/after my throttle body, but what is strange is that your dyno run with my stock tb is what I am putting down now with the proflow throttle body. Any ideas? Did I calibrate it wrong or install it wrong or something?
Hope you enjoyed my throttle body. LOL!
I didn't get to before/after my throttle body, but what is strange is that your dyno run with my stock tb is what I am putting down now with the proflow throttle body. Any ideas? Did I calibrate it wrong or install it wrong or something?
Maybe the moons were aligned differently. I wouldn't sweat it at all though. The idea here was to do a same day, same car dyno, and measure the difference using a single variable: Throttle Body. While absolute numbers may change day to day, car to car, dyno shop to dyno shop. The measured difference will be theoretically the same. In other words, I wouldn't be as concerned if I pulled 325 or 275 just that there is a difference between runs using the Proflow TB and your old stocker.