Front Sway Bar for 11k/11k
#11
I'm using this and it was worth every penny. After squaring the setup and running re-71r's it was the only real choice to go with due to how tunable it is. I found 1072 lbs (#4) to be my preferred setting. It was very neutral and let me tame oversteer with quick steering corrections without really having to lift throttle. I am still using the stock RSB on a stock suspension 2005 with adjustable front upper ball joints. I'm adding in DFV's for next season to tighten everything up and I expect it to be a phenomenal setup. I know that bar is expensive but so is your car and it deserves it. Use my motto of do it once, do it right.
-Maniac
-Maniac
#12
I'm using this and it was worth every penny. After squaring the setup and running re-71r's it was the only real choice to go with due to how tunable it is. I found 1072 lbs (#4) to be my preferred setting. It was very neutral and let me tame oversteer with quick steering corrections without really having to lift throttle. I am still using the stock RSB on a stock suspension 2005 with adjustable front upper ball joints. I'm adding in DFV's for next season to tighten everything up and I expect it to be a phenomenal setup. I know that bar is expensive but so is your car and it deserves it. Use my motto of do it once, do it right.
-Maniac
-Maniac
#13
I only autocross mine in STR for now but our courses can get to be pretty fast. If I ever tackle a real course you'd be spot on though lol!
#14
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Join Date: Aug 2017
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I've done this, and I researched it quite a bit, because my goal was the same as yours. I first went to the CR spring and shock because it was by far a more neutral handling car that the regular S2k. It changed the setup by making the front springs stiffer than the rear. But, while going to a square setup, you will massively improve you front grip and can go to far higher corning limits, you also transfer the balance far, far towards the front of the car.
This will make the car far looser, which is easily felt on track. In the canyons, if you go to the limit, it'll be felt as a roll down the cliff wall next to you.
Anyway yes, tire width absolutely dominates handling, and a little change in tire width can have the same effect as a major change to spring rates. Going from 225/255 to 255/255 changes your ratio of "available grip" (so to speak) from 44/56 F/R to 50/50 F/R. That's a huge change!
To give you an idea how big a change those 255 front tires are: if you wanted to just, say, stiffen up the front springs a little to get back to the load balance of your previous CR setup, you'd find that you can't do it without killing the CR damper: all else equal, you'd need to use front springs that are about 780 lb/in! Alternatively, you could delete the rear sway bar entirely. (That would actually go a little too far towards understeer.) Of course the best solution is a big front bar and/or rear wing as we talked about before. Looks like you'd need a 700 lb/in front bar (31mm solid or equivalent) to get there.
I will also make the disclaimer here that balance is a preference, and what one person may call loose, another may call perfectly balanced, but only in reference to what they like.
But, physics doesn't lie.
At the lower speeds of the canyons, if you want to bring balance back closer to neutral, you need to stiffen the front end. My first, and cheapest, suggestion is to swap to CR springs. Stiffer in the front and softer in the year. This would be the first step instead of a sway bar because the springs control the overall balance of all four corners. Another option is the Swift Spec-R springs. Very highly thought of. They are 9% and 14% stiffer front vs rear than the CR springs while lowering the car and inch or so. The sway bar should always be the fine tuner after other things are done.
I feel that the front should be stiffer than the rear, and not equal all around. So, personally I don't agree with the equal spring rate option. Also, many people would think an 11k/11k spring rate is pretty damn stiff and can decrease ride quality from OEM, especially with shocks matched to it. But, that is a preference also.
Getting a stiffer front bar to help restore balance is necessary in my opinion as well. But....it has to be a lot stiffer according the physics.
If I remember correctly, physics says you need a front bar on the order of about 700 lbs. The only people that make that bar for our car that I know of are Gendron, Saner/Moddidiction, Karcepts and Whiteline. I bought the Gendron, but it ain't cheap. A used version cost me $450 a few years back. Saner of course deosn't make their bar anymore, and although Moddidiction picked it up, I don't see it on his website anymore.
What will also help a bit is he CR front bumper. As far as I know, it is effective at producing downforce as low as 60mph, although not a whole lot of course. It's not always easy to find the OEM ones, but Ballade Sports sells a very well made one piece version that includes brake duct cut out and ducting mounting parts
If you are tracking the car, you will hit speeds that will considerably lighten the rear end and induce oversteer, pucker factor on a spinning car at 100mph is high. So, you really should get a rear wing if you've gone with a square set up. The mildest, and pretty much only normal street wing, would the CR wing. A replica that is good is also made my VIS. Thats what I got. The CR wing won't actually produce downforce, but it will reduce lift by 70%, which is a lot. It also shows you how much lift a non winged S2k has at high speeds.
If you'd like the read the definitive paper of S2k springs, shocks and sway bars, here it is. Written by out very own Twohoos.
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-br...prings-818884/
Now, while doing all this will make the tire/spring/sway bar/ balanced, that doesn't always mean you will like it. But, it does give you a mathematically correct starting point from which you can future balance if needed.
This will make the car far looser, which is easily felt on track. In the canyons, if you go to the limit, it'll be felt as a roll down the cliff wall next to you.
Anyway yes, tire width absolutely dominates handling, and a little change in tire width can have the same effect as a major change to spring rates. Going from 225/255 to 255/255 changes your ratio of "available grip" (so to speak) from 44/56 F/R to 50/50 F/R. That's a huge change!
To give you an idea how big a change those 255 front tires are: if you wanted to just, say, stiffen up the front springs a little to get back to the load balance of your previous CR setup, you'd find that you can't do it without killing the CR damper: all else equal, you'd need to use front springs that are about 780 lb/in! Alternatively, you could delete the rear sway bar entirely. (That would actually go a little too far towards understeer.) Of course the best solution is a big front bar and/or rear wing as we talked about before. Looks like you'd need a 700 lb/in front bar (31mm solid or equivalent) to get there.
I will also make the disclaimer here that balance is a preference, and what one person may call loose, another may call perfectly balanced, but only in reference to what they like.
But, physics doesn't lie.
At the lower speeds of the canyons, if you want to bring balance back closer to neutral, you need to stiffen the front end. My first, and cheapest, suggestion is to swap to CR springs. Stiffer in the front and softer in the year. This would be the first step instead of a sway bar because the springs control the overall balance of all four corners. Another option is the Swift Spec-R springs. Very highly thought of. They are 9% and 14% stiffer front vs rear than the CR springs while lowering the car and inch or so. The sway bar should always be the fine tuner after other things are done.
I feel that the front should be stiffer than the rear, and not equal all around. So, personally I don't agree with the equal spring rate option. Also, many people would think an 11k/11k spring rate is pretty damn stiff and can decrease ride quality from OEM, especially with shocks matched to it. But, that is a preference also.
Getting a stiffer front bar to help restore balance is necessary in my opinion as well. But....it has to be a lot stiffer according the physics.
If I remember correctly, physics says you need a front bar on the order of about 700 lbs. The only people that make that bar for our car that I know of are Gendron, Saner/Moddidiction, Karcepts and Whiteline. I bought the Gendron, but it ain't cheap. A used version cost me $450 a few years back. Saner of course deosn't make their bar anymore, and although Moddidiction picked it up, I don't see it on his website anymore.
What will also help a bit is he CR front bumper. As far as I know, it is effective at producing downforce as low as 60mph, although not a whole lot of course. It's not always easy to find the OEM ones, but Ballade Sports sells a very well made one piece version that includes brake duct cut out and ducting mounting parts
If you are tracking the car, you will hit speeds that will considerably lighten the rear end and induce oversteer, pucker factor on a spinning car at 100mph is high. So, you really should get a rear wing if you've gone with a square set up. The mildest, and pretty much only normal street wing, would the CR wing. A replica that is good is also made my VIS. Thats what I got. The CR wing won't actually produce downforce, but it will reduce lift by 70%, which is a lot. It also shows you how much lift a non winged S2k has at high speeds.
If you'd like the read the definitive paper of S2k springs, shocks and sway bars, here it is. Written by out very own Twohoos.
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-br...prings-818884/
Now, while doing all this will make the tire/spring/sway bar/ balanced, that doesn't always mean you will like it. But, it does give you a mathematically correct starting point from which you can future balance if needed.
#15
Registered User
Just to throw my experience in, I have an 06 with 255 square, HKS SP's( 16k/16k ) and a Saner bar (what the moddiction is based on) set on softest and its too stiff. Autocross is basically just grannying around trying not to wash out/understeer. I did way better at autox when I was on PSS9's with 9k/9k and the saner bar but it was too soft for track. After I switched to the HKS's I removed the factory rear sway for a couple sessions on track and the rear felt like it rolled around and when I put it back on I was able to rotate predictably on entry and allowed me to get on the throttle quicker. Last time I was at CMP I broke a front endlink and the car actually felt better. Im going to change suspension up in January to a softer spring rate like 11k or 12k and going to an 00-03 front sway with the OE 06 rear sway.
#16
Just to throw my experience in, I have an 06 with 255 square, HKS SP's( 16k/16k ) and a Saner bar (what the moddiction is based on) set on softest and its too stiff. Autocross is basically just grannying around trying not to wash out/understeer. I did way better at autox when I was on PSS9's with 9k/9k and the saner bar but it was too soft for track. After I switched to the HKS's I removed the factory rear sway for a couple sessions on track and the rear felt like it rolled around and when I put it back on I was able to rotate predictably on entry and allowed me to get on the throttle quicker. Last time I was at CMP I broke a front endlink and the car actually felt better. Im going to change suspension up in January to a softer spring rate like 11k or 12k and going to an 00-03 front sway with the OE 06 rear sway.
I was also told that I might need a stiffer rear bar (on stock 06), which is confusing because when I was browsing different square setup threads, years ago, it was my understanding that people used a stiffer front bar on the ap2, in order to help rotate the rear.
Oh, and I am also considering the HKS Hipermax SP. I don't track anymore, but I do enjoy my local canyons and backroads. I had planmed to see what all the Ohlins DFV fuss is about, but a couple of tuners recently told me they like the HKS setup, and the DFV isn't that impressive. I'm even looking at the HKS GT because maintaining good ride quality is a priority. I take my s2k on roadtrips with my gf, which often include areas with unpaved roads. The HKS SP is nice, esp with the pillowball mounts, but I'm concerned the 16k spring rates and valving are too much for my needs.
Last edited by Trustd_1; 12-15-2017 at 09:28 AM.
#17
Registered User
By coincidence, I also have an 06 with a Saner front bar, and I just went 255 square last weekend. I haven't driven the car much, since I got it back, but it does understeer quite a bit. I was advised to stiffen my rear coilovers a bit, which I just did. I haven't drive the car yet though.
I was also told that I might need a stiffer rear bar (on stock 06), which is confusing because when I was browsing different square setup threads, years ago, it was my understanding that people used a stiffer front bar on the ap2, in order to help rotate the rear.
Oh, and I am also considering the HKS Hipermax SP. I don't track anymore, but I do enjoy my local canyons and backroads. I had planmed to see what all the Ohlins DFV fuss is about, but a couple of tuners recently told me they like the HKS setup, and the DFV isn't that impressive. I'm even looking at the HKS GT because maintaining good ride quality is a priority. I take my s2k on roadtrips with my gf, which often include areas with unpaved roads. The HKS SP is nice, esp with the pillowball mounts, but I'm concerned the 16k spring rates and valving are too much for my needs.
I was also told that I might need a stiffer rear bar (on stock 06), which is confusing because when I was browsing different square setup threads, years ago, it was my understanding that people used a stiffer front bar on the ap2, in order to help rotate the rear.
Oh, and I am also considering the HKS Hipermax SP. I don't track anymore, but I do enjoy my local canyons and backroads. I had planmed to see what all the Ohlins DFV fuss is about, but a couple of tuners recently told me they like the HKS setup, and the DFV isn't that impressive. I'm even looking at the HKS GT because maintaining good ride quality is a priority. I take my s2k on roadtrips with my gf, which often include areas with unpaved roads. The HKS SP is nice, esp with the pillowball mounts, but I'm concerned the 16k spring rates and valving are too much for my needs.
#18
Good thread, I'm about to enter this realm, have a set of FPsport 11/11 on order, I'm currently 225/255 staggered on '06 with stock everything else and was planning to attack changes methodically, 1st FPsport, then sway and/or square...track....repeat.
BTW has anyone received their FPSport if ordered October or later?
BTW has anyone received their FPSport if ordered October or later?
#19
I believe that the main reason I wash out is the combination of high spring rate and stiff front bar so it might be different for you depending on your shock/spring combo. I would suggest the GT kit if you want HKS's and your main use is canyons and trips but Ive ridden on DFV's, especially back to back with mine a lot, and theyre wonderful. Just a bit soft for track which is what might be best for you. My gf doesnt really like riding in the car after installing the SP's because it hurts the bewbs.
The other solution would be to soften the front bar and run Hoosiers on the 16k/16k.
-Maniac
#20
Registered User
Running 16k/16k with that front bar would require staggered hoosiers to "feel" right. If you are running any of the good 200tw tires square with a good bar on the front you'd need a stagger spring combo with like a 12/10ish (maybe 11k/11k for track?) range and it would need to be critically damped. You just don't have enough available grip to use those rates otherwise.
The other solution would be to soften the front bar and run Hoosiers on the 16k/16k.
-Maniac
The other solution would be to soften the front bar and run Hoosiers on the 16k/16k.
-Maniac