Karcepts Sway Bar Install
09-25-2014, 07:42 PM
#1
Community Organizer
Thread Starter
Karcepts Sway Bar Install
First let me say that I am no way affiliated with this company, and this post is for the sole purpose of giving information on a new product out on the market.
****I am utilizing stock shocks so this may not apply to all, there are instructions for those who are using aftermarket shocks. In the instructions if you were to use the stock shocks and want to make use of the adjustment holes 4-6, the instruction will advise to flip the shocks from left to right. I deviated since I will not have a need for 4-6 adjustment ranges just yet****
And sorry for the bad photos, I'm new to shooting with a camera.
Lets start!
http://www.karcepts.com/index_files/...structions.pdf
This is the instruction by the vendor. I followed it exactly to the T and even use excerpts from the instruction manual to aide with this walk through. It is a very thorough instruction manual. There are some very good illustrations there. Now you ask why even put this walk through together? Some people feel better by seeing another person attempt it.
This is what you get out of the box. *Shirt optional*
Tools needed
Torque Wrench
Sockets - 17mm, 14mm, 10mm hex bit, 9/16", 3/16" hex bit
1/2" Open End Wrench
9/16" Ratcheting Combination Wrench
Tape Measure
Rubber Mallet
*I ended up using a 13mm and a 14mm since I do not have SAE size wrenches.
Take your tape measure and measure your ride height.
Jack up the car and safely put it on jackstands. And removing the wheels.
Take off your stock sway bar. You will be utilizing the OEM brackets from your stock bar.
-Disconnect the endlinks from the FLCA ( Front lower control arm ) 14mm nut on each side. You will need the proper size hex bit or allen wrench to stop the endlink from spinning. Others get lucky and get by by not having to do so. Use penetrant as see fit.
-There are 4x 17mm bolts holding the bracket to the frame.
-Slide out the bar and this is what you get
-now take your 14mm socket and disconnect the bar from the bracket. You will be left with the two T shaped brackets to mount back on the frame. Re-attach the brackets and torque the 17mm bolts to 61 ft/lbs
Slide a solid mount onto each end of the splined center section. Upon first install, it can be normal if the mount bushings require some effort to slide onto the shaft. Note the orientation of the bushing inside each mount. The flanged
side of the bushings must be positioned facing out
Install the solid mount/center section assembly onto the factory sway bar
mounting brackets with the provided M10x25 flange bolts and torque to 29 ftlbs with a 14mm socket. Do not be alarmed if observing high friction levels
when trying to rotate the bar at this time. With use, the bushings will break-in
and free up quickly.
Here is the inside face of the sway bar mount and you can see the difference
Slide a shaft collar over each end of the splined center section. Leave the set screws loose. There is no need to center the bar perfectly at this time. You will not be centering the bar based off how much shaft is protruding from the sides
of the mounts as that does not always give a clear indication of true center (due to eccentric alignment bolt positions as well as excess hole clearance in the connection between the factory sway bar mounting brackets to the frame).
Disconnect the brake line from the bracket.
Slide the left sway bar arm over the splined end of the center section, leaving 1/16" of shaft protruding past the end of the arm. This is the optimal arm installation position. Thread the M12x50 socket head cap screw through the arm; and with a 10mm hex bit socket, torque to 50 ft-lbs.
Repeat the above for the right sway bar arm, making certain to clock the right
arm onto the shaft splines to an exact mirror image as the left arm.
Refer to page 7 in instruction booklet.
Now here is the part where your ride height measurement comes into play. Page 8 in the instruction booklet has the measurements for the endlinks according to your ride height. Stock 08 CR is 13.75 from hub center to metal fender edge.
Use the below table to determine ideal endlink length for your ride height:
1*RIDE HEIGHT ENDLINK LENGTH *2
12.50" 2.63"
12.75" 2.69"
13.00" 2.75"
13.25" 2.81"
13.50" 2.88"
13.75" 2.94"
14.00" 3.00"
14.25" 3.06"
14.50" 3.13"
*1 Ride height is measured from the center of the hub to the bottom edge of the fender.
*2 Endlink length is measured from center of ball to center of ball.
Depending on corner balance (differing heights per side of the car w/o driver), you may realized the left link and right link should differ in lengths per the above table. At this time, find a happy medium to set both endlinks to the same length. We will
need the endlinks at equal length in order to center the bar at full droop. In future steps (after centering the bar), you may re-correct endlink length if finding the need to even do so. We have built in fairly large clearances on this design for ease of
quick adjustment, so endlinks set at equal lengths even with slightly differing left to right ride heights most likely will not need any correction.Install the male half of endlinks into Hole #4 of each sway bar arm and secure with the 3/8" flange nuts. Proper torque on this nut is 28 ft-lbs, but since this is the adjustment nut, it's impractical to assume you'll be using a torque wrench every time you make a sway bar change. Just tighten by feel approximately close to 28 ft-lbs. Plan to use a 9/16" ratcheting combination wrench on this nut for quickest adjustments. Install female half of endlinks into the OEM sway bar endlink locations on the lower control arms. Use a 1/2" open end wrench (to hold the endlink stud from spinning) along with a 9/16" socket to secure the provided 3/8" nylon-insert locknuts, and torque to 28 ft-lbs.
* I used hole #3 as instructed for my application by the vendor.
Assuming all bolts and endlinks are tight (but with shaft collars still loose), center the sway bar assembly by comparing the distance between the endlinks and the shock bodies. Use a tape measure (or calipers) to assist in the centering. Again, centering the bar based off how much shaft is protruding from the sides of the mounts does not give a clear indication of true center (due to eccentric alignment bolt positions as well as excess hole clearance in the connection between the factory sway bar mounting brackets to the frame). You may get lucky where that method could work out; but chances are, you must
base the centering off the distance between endlinks and shock bodies as shown below. If necessary, use a rubber mallet to tap on the sway bar arms to adjust the position until center is found. Once in position, slide shaft collars tight up against the bushings of the solid mounts and torque shaft collar setscrews to 17 ft-lbs with a 3/16" hex bit socket. Make certain there is no clearance between the solid mounts and the shaft collars once torqued. As a check, grab a hold of the sway bar center section with both hands, and with all your strength, try to rock the bar side to side, back and forth (make sure the vehicle is securely supported before doing so). If you feel any side to side play, you will need to re-set one of the shaft collars to get rid of the excess clearance. Functionally, if there is a little side to side play, there will be no ill effects; however, some side to side play may attribute to a knocking noise.
Please refer to manual for Quick adjustment set up and procedure. There is a very detailed guide in there with illustrations which I do not have any better way of showing.
and lastly please double check all your bolts and make sure everything is properly tightened and torqued to spec. Dont forget about the brake line. This is a temporary solution, I am currently searching on a better mounting solution, i know some after market suspension comes with a brake line relocation kit and will be doing something similar. I relocated mine like so:
That is it for now and I will revise this tomorrow. It is late and i need some rest. Ill have more info tomorrow as well. Thank you for reading.
****I am utilizing stock shocks so this may not apply to all, there are instructions for those who are using aftermarket shocks. In the instructions if you were to use the stock shocks and want to make use of the adjustment holes 4-6, the instruction will advise to flip the shocks from left to right. I deviated since I will not have a need for 4-6 adjustment ranges just yet****
And sorry for the bad photos, I'm new to shooting with a camera.
Lets start!
http://www.karcepts.com/index_files/...structions.pdf
This is the instruction by the vendor. I followed it exactly to the T and even use excerpts from the instruction manual to aide with this walk through. It is a very thorough instruction manual. There are some very good illustrations there. Now you ask why even put this walk through together? Some people feel better by seeing another person attempt it.
This is what you get out of the box. *Shirt optional*
Tools needed
Torque Wrench
Sockets - 17mm, 14mm, 10mm hex bit, 9/16", 3/16" hex bit
1/2" Open End Wrench
9/16" Ratcheting Combination Wrench
Tape Measure
Rubber Mallet
*I ended up using a 13mm and a 14mm since I do not have SAE size wrenches.
Take your tape measure and measure your ride height.
Jack up the car and safely put it on jackstands. And removing the wheels.
Take off your stock sway bar. You will be utilizing the OEM brackets from your stock bar.
-Disconnect the endlinks from the FLCA ( Front lower control arm ) 14mm nut on each side. You will need the proper size hex bit or allen wrench to stop the endlink from spinning. Others get lucky and get by by not having to do so. Use penetrant as see fit.
-There are 4x 17mm bolts holding the bracket to the frame.
-Slide out the bar and this is what you get
-now take your 14mm socket and disconnect the bar from the bracket. You will be left with the two T shaped brackets to mount back on the frame. Re-attach the brackets and torque the 17mm bolts to 61 ft/lbs
Slide a solid mount onto each end of the splined center section. Upon first install, it can be normal if the mount bushings require some effort to slide onto the shaft. Note the orientation of the bushing inside each mount. The flanged
side of the bushings must be positioned facing out
Install the solid mount/center section assembly onto the factory sway bar
mounting brackets with the provided M10x25 flange bolts and torque to 29 ftlbs with a 14mm socket. Do not be alarmed if observing high friction levels
when trying to rotate the bar at this time. With use, the bushings will break-in
and free up quickly.
Here is the inside face of the sway bar mount and you can see the difference
Slide a shaft collar over each end of the splined center section. Leave the set screws loose. There is no need to center the bar perfectly at this time. You will not be centering the bar based off how much shaft is protruding from the sides
of the mounts as that does not always give a clear indication of true center (due to eccentric alignment bolt positions as well as excess hole clearance in the connection between the factory sway bar mounting brackets to the frame).
Disconnect the brake line from the bracket.
Slide the left sway bar arm over the splined end of the center section, leaving 1/16" of shaft protruding past the end of the arm. This is the optimal arm installation position. Thread the M12x50 socket head cap screw through the arm; and with a 10mm hex bit socket, torque to 50 ft-lbs.
Repeat the above for the right sway bar arm, making certain to clock the right
arm onto the shaft splines to an exact mirror image as the left arm.
Refer to page 7 in instruction booklet.
Now here is the part where your ride height measurement comes into play. Page 8 in the instruction booklet has the measurements for the endlinks according to your ride height. Stock 08 CR is 13.75 from hub center to metal fender edge.
Use the below table to determine ideal endlink length for your ride height:
1*RIDE HEIGHT ENDLINK LENGTH *2
12.50" 2.63"
12.75" 2.69"
13.00" 2.75"
13.25" 2.81"
13.50" 2.88"
13.75" 2.94"
14.00" 3.00"
14.25" 3.06"
14.50" 3.13"
*1 Ride height is measured from the center of the hub to the bottom edge of the fender.
*2 Endlink length is measured from center of ball to center of ball.
Depending on corner balance (differing heights per side of the car w/o driver), you may realized the left link and right link should differ in lengths per the above table. At this time, find a happy medium to set both endlinks to the same length. We will
need the endlinks at equal length in order to center the bar at full droop. In future steps (after centering the bar), you may re-correct endlink length if finding the need to even do so. We have built in fairly large clearances on this design for ease of
quick adjustment, so endlinks set at equal lengths even with slightly differing left to right ride heights most likely will not need any correction.Install the male half of endlinks into Hole #4 of each sway bar arm and secure with the 3/8" flange nuts. Proper torque on this nut is 28 ft-lbs, but since this is the adjustment nut, it's impractical to assume you'll be using a torque wrench every time you make a sway bar change. Just tighten by feel approximately close to 28 ft-lbs. Plan to use a 9/16" ratcheting combination wrench on this nut for quickest adjustments. Install female half of endlinks into the OEM sway bar endlink locations on the lower control arms. Use a 1/2" open end wrench (to hold the endlink stud from spinning) along with a 9/16" socket to secure the provided 3/8" nylon-insert locknuts, and torque to 28 ft-lbs.
* I used hole #3 as instructed for my application by the vendor.
Assuming all bolts and endlinks are tight (but with shaft collars still loose), center the sway bar assembly by comparing the distance between the endlinks and the shock bodies. Use a tape measure (or calipers) to assist in the centering. Again, centering the bar based off how much shaft is protruding from the sides of the mounts does not give a clear indication of true center (due to eccentric alignment bolt positions as well as excess hole clearance in the connection between the factory sway bar mounting brackets to the frame). You may get lucky where that method could work out; but chances are, you must
base the centering off the distance between endlinks and shock bodies as shown below. If necessary, use a rubber mallet to tap on the sway bar arms to adjust the position until center is found. Once in position, slide shaft collars tight up against the bushings of the solid mounts and torque shaft collar setscrews to 17 ft-lbs with a 3/16" hex bit socket. Make certain there is no clearance between the solid mounts and the shaft collars once torqued. As a check, grab a hold of the sway bar center section with both hands, and with all your strength, try to rock the bar side to side, back and forth (make sure the vehicle is securely supported before doing so). If you feel any side to side play, you will need to re-set one of the shaft collars to get rid of the excess clearance. Functionally, if there is a little side to side play, there will be no ill effects; however, some side to side play may attribute to a knocking noise.
Please refer to manual for Quick adjustment set up and procedure. There is a very detailed guide in there with illustrations which I do not have any better way of showing.
and lastly please double check all your bolts and make sure everything is properly tightened and torqued to spec. Dont forget about the brake line. This is a temporary solution, I am currently searching on a better mounting solution, i know some after market suspension comes with a brake line relocation kit and will be doing something similar. I relocated mine like so:
That is it for now and I will revise this tomorrow. It is late and i need some rest. Ill have more info tomorrow as well. Thank you for reading.
09-25-2014, 07:42 PM
#2
Community Organizer
Thread Starter
Here's the nerdy science stuff.
all can be found here in the STR Prep - Sway bars
excerpt from the STR prep - Sway bar discussion from the bar designer
Karcepts Front Sway Bar; 1.25" O.D.; 0.25" Wall * this is the one i currently have *
Hole 1: 755 lb/in
Hole 2: 842 lb/in
Hole 3: 947 lb/in
Hole 4: 1072 lb/in
Hole 5: 1215 lb/in
Hole 6: 1370 lb/in
"...However, I do not like this method of comparison. It works fine when comparing OEM sway bars that use the exact same endlink hole placement between all bars. But if you are trying to compare aftermarket bars that utilize endlink hole postions in different physical locations relative to the LCA, you can throw a lot of these theoretical comparison numbers out the window. Horizontal and vertical placement of the center section and even position of the endlink itself (if bolted on the front side vs. back side of the LCA) will additionally change things drastically.
Here is a prime example: On the Gendron bar set to Hole 5, it is possible to mount the lower part of the endlink on either the front or back of the LCA. At one inch of shock travel, the sway bar center section will see 5.35 degrees of twist when the endlink is mounted on the back of the LCA. However, if mounting the endlink on the front of the LCA (still at Hole 5 on the bar), the center section will see 6.24 degrees of twist at the same one inch of shock travel. That's a fairly substantial change in rate due to a subtle change in geometry.
To compare all these bars with any sort of accuracy; a physical test rig would need to be made (something we may try at some point out of curiosity, but not a priority).
Since the Karcepts and Gendron bars do use the exact same center section specifications, I can provide a decent apple to apple comparison between the two for you."
Below is how much angular twist a given sway bar center section will see at one inch of shock travel:
Karcepts Hole 1: 5.31 deg
Karcepts Hole 2: 5.57 deg
Karcepts Hole 3: 5.86 deg
Karcepts Hole 4: 6.19 deg
Karcepts Hole 5: 6.60 deg
Karcepts Hole 6: 7.18 deg
Gendron Hole 1: 4.53 deg
Gendron Hole 2: 4.70 deg
Gendron Hole 3: 4.85 deg
Gendron Hole 4: 5.16 deg
Gendron Hole 5: 5.35 deg (endlink on back side of LCA)
Gendron Hole 5: 6.24 deg (endlink on front side of LCA)
Gendron Hole 6: 6.45 deg
Karcepts Front Sway Bar; 1.25" O.D.; 0.18" Wall * Thinner wall center section ( softer )
Hole 1: 659 lb/in
Hole 2: 735 lb/in
Hole 3: 827 lb/in
Hole 4: 936 lb/in
Hole 5: 1061 lb/in
Hole 6: 1196 lb/in
".... my point was to please not look too deeply into the Puhn calculations if you are using that to spec out an aftermarket sway bar. The Puhn numbers on the Karcepts bar are definitely misleading if comparing them to the other bars you have listed on the first page of this thread. It makes it look like the Karcepts bar is super stiff, but that is not the case. Puhn calcs assume the endlink is perfectly perpendicular to the bar and LCA mounting location on every hole position, which it never will be (unless you start re-positioning the fore/aft position of the sway bar on every hole change, along with other physically impossible dimensional changes that would need to happen). The stiffest hole on the Karcepts bar is the closest to the sway bar centerline compared to any other aftermarket bar we have measured. However, closer to the center also makes the endlink angle greater; in effect, losing some portion of angular twist throughout the travel. It's still more angular twist than other bars, but no where near the magnitude the Puhn method assumes since it is not perpendicular. Additionally, I have a few of the bars you list modeled up in my software to within a millimeter; so based off extremely accurate dimensions that I am using, the Puhn numbers I have calculated on these bars are much different than you have listed, so there are further inaccuracies here if using this data for comparison purposes.
I've provided the angular twist numbers which are a much more accurate gauge to compare hole for hole based off the same center section. The NASCAR style sway bar manufactures rate their bars at X lbs at X degrees of twist. I've given you the angular twist at 1" of shock travel... do some math!
Joking though; as you do still need some other dimensional info to make this comparison. Honestly, I have only spent a little bit of time on this and am not totally confident in the accuracy of the numbers I am getting to answer your question in full. Theoretically, you *should* be in the ball park with your assumption. I need more time on this to state something I would stand by.
Long story short for people is you need to test. Grab a base setup, and go from there and tweak what is best for you.. If you are currently using a solid bar, maybe best to stay with a solid bar if deciding to try the Karcepts setup. Our arms were designed primarily for the quick adjust, less mass, a tick more stiffness on max holes, and yet a more even spread between holes for finer adjustment...
To clarify: Puhn numbers simply calculate the sway bar as a giant spring, on it's own, irrelevant to how the bar is affixed or functioning with a vehicle's suspension.
Do not try to compare angle of twist to Puhn numbers.
Here is a misconception about sway bars.. Some people assume when using the endlink hole position furthest from the bar center line (softer setting) the bar is softer primarily due to the sway bar arm itself flexing more than when using an endlink hole position that is closer to the bar center line (stiffer position)... as if the arm is flexing more because it is longer, and therefore weaker.. Do not think about sway bars in this way! The deflection or twist in the arms themselves should be viewed as negligible. There definitely is some portion of this going on, but more so in a light tubular single piece bar (like the OEM ones). But IMO, a properly designed 3 piece sway bar ARM should not be deflecting one bit throughout the adjustment range (or at least, very minimally). The center section itself is the primary flexing member on this style of sway bar.
The angular twist data I have provided is not something that is calculated. It is something that is measured. After modeling the S2000 front suspension geometry, I can simulate an amount of shock travel (1" in this case) and know precisely how many degrees that shock movement induced onto the center section. You can measure this in real life, but may be difficult to get super accurate numbers. The longer the sway bar arm becomes, the less amount of angular twist it applies to the center section for a given amount of suspension travel. It's purely geometry..
So if you try to twist a spring steel sway bar center section, what gives you more rate? Twisting it 1 degree at 1" of shock travel, or trying to twist it 5 degrees at 1" of shock travel?
Hope that makes sense.. "
all can be found here in the STR Prep - Sway bars
excerpt from the STR prep - Sway bar discussion from the bar designer
Karcepts Front Sway Bar; 1.25" O.D.; 0.25" Wall * this is the one i currently have *
Hole 1: 755 lb/in
Hole 2: 842 lb/in
Hole 3: 947 lb/in
Hole 4: 1072 lb/in
Hole 5: 1215 lb/in
Hole 6: 1370 lb/in
"...However, I do not like this method of comparison. It works fine when comparing OEM sway bars that use the exact same endlink hole placement between all bars. But if you are trying to compare aftermarket bars that utilize endlink hole postions in different physical locations relative to the LCA, you can throw a lot of these theoretical comparison numbers out the window. Horizontal and vertical placement of the center section and even position of the endlink itself (if bolted on the front side vs. back side of the LCA) will additionally change things drastically.
Here is a prime example: On the Gendron bar set to Hole 5, it is possible to mount the lower part of the endlink on either the front or back of the LCA. At one inch of shock travel, the sway bar center section will see 5.35 degrees of twist when the endlink is mounted on the back of the LCA. However, if mounting the endlink on the front of the LCA (still at Hole 5 on the bar), the center section will see 6.24 degrees of twist at the same one inch of shock travel. That's a fairly substantial change in rate due to a subtle change in geometry.
To compare all these bars with any sort of accuracy; a physical test rig would need to be made (something we may try at some point out of curiosity, but not a priority).
Since the Karcepts and Gendron bars do use the exact same center section specifications, I can provide a decent apple to apple comparison between the two for you."
Below is how much angular twist a given sway bar center section will see at one inch of shock travel:
Karcepts Hole 1: 5.31 deg
Karcepts Hole 2: 5.57 deg
Karcepts Hole 3: 5.86 deg
Karcepts Hole 4: 6.19 deg
Karcepts Hole 5: 6.60 deg
Karcepts Hole 6: 7.18 deg
Gendron Hole 1: 4.53 deg
Gendron Hole 2: 4.70 deg
Gendron Hole 3: 4.85 deg
Gendron Hole 4: 5.16 deg
Gendron Hole 5: 5.35 deg (endlink on back side of LCA)
Gendron Hole 5: 6.24 deg (endlink on front side of LCA)
Gendron Hole 6: 6.45 deg
Karcepts Front Sway Bar; 1.25" O.D.; 0.18" Wall * Thinner wall center section ( softer )
Hole 1: 659 lb/in
Hole 2: 735 lb/in
Hole 3: 827 lb/in
Hole 4: 936 lb/in
Hole 5: 1061 lb/in
Hole 6: 1196 lb/in
".... my point was to please not look too deeply into the Puhn calculations if you are using that to spec out an aftermarket sway bar. The Puhn numbers on the Karcepts bar are definitely misleading if comparing them to the other bars you have listed on the first page of this thread. It makes it look like the Karcepts bar is super stiff, but that is not the case. Puhn calcs assume the endlink is perfectly perpendicular to the bar and LCA mounting location on every hole position, which it never will be (unless you start re-positioning the fore/aft position of the sway bar on every hole change, along with other physically impossible dimensional changes that would need to happen). The stiffest hole on the Karcepts bar is the closest to the sway bar centerline compared to any other aftermarket bar we have measured. However, closer to the center also makes the endlink angle greater; in effect, losing some portion of angular twist throughout the travel. It's still more angular twist than other bars, but no where near the magnitude the Puhn method assumes since it is not perpendicular. Additionally, I have a few of the bars you list modeled up in my software to within a millimeter; so based off extremely accurate dimensions that I am using, the Puhn numbers I have calculated on these bars are much different than you have listed, so there are further inaccuracies here if using this data for comparison purposes.
I've provided the angular twist numbers which are a much more accurate gauge to compare hole for hole based off the same center section. The NASCAR style sway bar manufactures rate their bars at X lbs at X degrees of twist. I've given you the angular twist at 1" of shock travel... do some math!
Joking though; as you do still need some other dimensional info to make this comparison. Honestly, I have only spent a little bit of time on this and am not totally confident in the accuracy of the numbers I am getting to answer your question in full. Theoretically, you *should* be in the ball park with your assumption. I need more time on this to state something I would stand by. Long story short for people is you need to test. Grab a base setup, and go from there and tweak what is best for you.. If you are currently using a solid bar, maybe best to stay with a solid bar if deciding to try the Karcepts setup. Our arms were designed primarily for the quick adjust, less mass, a tick more stiffness on max holes, and yet a more even spread between holes for finer adjustment...
To clarify: Puhn numbers simply calculate the sway bar as a giant spring, on it's own, irrelevant to how the bar is affixed or functioning with a vehicle's suspension.
Do not try to compare angle of twist to Puhn numbers.
Here is a misconception about sway bars.. Some people assume when using the endlink hole position furthest from the bar center line (softer setting) the bar is softer primarily due to the sway bar arm itself flexing more than when using an endlink hole position that is closer to the bar center line (stiffer position)... as if the arm is flexing more because it is longer, and therefore weaker.. Do not think about sway bars in this way! The deflection or twist in the arms themselves should be viewed as negligible. There definitely is some portion of this going on, but more so in a light tubular single piece bar (like the OEM ones). But IMO, a properly designed 3 piece sway bar ARM should not be deflecting one bit throughout the adjustment range (or at least, very minimally). The center section itself is the primary flexing member on this style of sway bar.
The angular twist data I have provided is not something that is calculated. It is something that is measured. After modeling the S2000 front suspension geometry, I can simulate an amount of shock travel (1" in this case) and know precisely how many degrees that shock movement induced onto the center section. You can measure this in real life, but may be difficult to get super accurate numbers. The longer the sway bar arm becomes, the less amount of angular twist it applies to the center section for a given amount of suspension travel. It's purely geometry..
So if you try to twist a spring steel sway bar center section, what gives you more rate? Twisting it 1 degree at 1" of shock travel, or trying to twist it 5 degrees at 1" of shock travel?
Hope that makes sense.. "
Yes, thank you Jon for taking the time to post up that comparison!!
Also, earlier I stated I would try to do some math factoring the actual measured angular twist with center section rates to give a better sway bar center section comparison. Some B Street guys were complaining of too much push on the .25" wall, so this may be of use if desiring a softer center.
I have provided the comparison in more usable numbers, with units in lbs/in @ the shock (SR), and also lbs/in @ the wheel (WR):
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, Solid
Hole 1 SR=459 lbs/in, WR=196 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=507 lbs/in, WR=216 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=564 lbs/in, WR=241 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=632 lbs/in, WR=269 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=714 lbs/in, WR=304 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=822 lbs/in, WR=351 lbs/in
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, 0.250" Wall
Hole 1 SR=400 lbs/in, WR=171 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=442 lbs/in, WR=188 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=491 lbs/in, WR=209 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=550 lbs/in, WR=235 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=622 lbs/in, WR=265 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=715 lbs/in, WR=305 lbs/in
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, 0.188" Wall
Hole 1 SR=349 lbs/in, WR=149 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=385 lbs/in, WR=164 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=428 lbs/in, WR=183 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=480 lbs/in, WR=205 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=542 lbs/in, WR=231 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=624 lbs/in, WR=266 lbs/in
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, 0.120" Wall
Hole 1 SR=263 lbs/in, WR=112 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=291 lbs/in, WR=124 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=324 lbs/in, WR=138 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=362 lbs/in, WR=154 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=410 lbs/in, WR=175 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=471 lbs/in, WR=201 lbs/in
Also, earlier I stated I would try to do some math factoring the actual measured angular twist with center section rates to give a better sway bar center section comparison. Some B Street guys were complaining of too much push on the .25" wall, so this may be of use if desiring a softer center.
I have provided the comparison in more usable numbers, with units in lbs/in @ the shock (SR), and also lbs/in @ the wheel (WR):
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, Solid
Hole 1 SR=459 lbs/in, WR=196 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=507 lbs/in, WR=216 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=564 lbs/in, WR=241 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=632 lbs/in, WR=269 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=714 lbs/in, WR=304 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=822 lbs/in, WR=351 lbs/in
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, 0.250" Wall
Hole 1 SR=400 lbs/in, WR=171 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=442 lbs/in, WR=188 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=491 lbs/in, WR=209 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=550 lbs/in, WR=235 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=622 lbs/in, WR=265 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=715 lbs/in, WR=305 lbs/in
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, 0.188" Wall
Hole 1 SR=349 lbs/in, WR=149 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=385 lbs/in, WR=164 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=428 lbs/in, WR=183 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=480 lbs/in, WR=205 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=542 lbs/in, WR=231 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=624 lbs/in, WR=266 lbs/in
Karcepts Front Sway Bar, 1.25" OD, 0.120" Wall
Hole 1 SR=263 lbs/in, WR=112 lbs/in
Hole 2 SR=291 lbs/in, WR=124 lbs/in
Hole 3 SR=324 lbs/in, WR=138 lbs/in
Hole 4 SR=362 lbs/in, WR=154 lbs/in
Hole 5 SR=410 lbs/in, WR=175 lbs/in
Hole 6 SR=471 lbs/in, WR=201 lbs/in
09-26-2014, 04:58 AM
#6
Community Organizer
Thread Starter
Thank you, im sure ill be making revisions to this lol
All the calculations and science stuff is on the second post. It does use the same center section as the Gendron bar, but it is quite a bit lighter due to the gratuitous use of aluminum
. Also the quick adjustment feature and the added clearance with the Karcepts bar over the Gendron seen in this picture.
The CR came with a stiffener bar for the rack, base models did not come with this and not everyone with a CR running a Gendron had this same issue. The Gendron was slightly rubbing that bar.
Thank you! I hope i didnt mess it up.
All the calculations and science stuff is on the second post. It does use the same center section as the Gendron bar, but it is quite a bit lighter due to the gratuitous use of aluminum
. Also the quick adjustment feature and the added clearance with the Karcepts bar over the Gendron seen in this picture.The CR came with a stiffener bar for the rack, base models did not come with this and not everyone with a CR running a Gendron had this same issue. The Gendron was slightly rubbing that bar.
Thank you! I hope i didnt mess it up.
09-29-2014, 04:11 AM
#7
Community Organizer
Thread Starter
So after day one of install, I drove the car around and experienced some binding noises. But these noises are due to the self lubricating solid mounts. The noises were only heard at slow speeds coming to a stop. After about 20 miles of driving all of the noises were pretty much gone. Now the suspension has settled, its a good time to check to make sure you have the end links at proper length so the quick adjustment process is functioning. After adjusting the endlinks again, the process is quick and easy, 3 mins per side if you practice the procedure. The car feels great, and I will have another review on the 12th, since that will be my next date for autocross.
Trending Topics
09-29-2014, 05:16 AM
#8
Former Sponsor
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have observed if the bushings are on the tight side after install, you will hear a bunch of racket coming from the front end. It will sound like clanking or a knocking noise. It is not the endlinks, nor any actual interference of anything (which it may sound like). It is simply the noise of the bar trying to overcome the friction of the solid bearings. And you will primarily hear it at crawling speeds, mainly over bumps. Once the bushings break in and the friction is reduced, this will go away.
09-29-2014, 05:36 PM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have observed if the bushings are on the tight side after install, you will hear a bunch of racket coming from the front end. It will sound like clanking or a knocking noise. It is not the endlinks, nor any actual interference of anything (which it may sound like). It is simply the noise of the bar trying to overcome the friction of the solid bearings. And you will primarily hear it at crawling speeds, mainly over bumps. Once the bushings break in and the friction is reduced, this will go away.
09-30-2014, 08:16 AM
#10
Community Organizer
Thread Starter
im glad this post is of value to you! i cannot wait to test this out in the field, please keep us informed after you install. I still daily my car too . also what form of motorsport do you usually partake in ? autocross? time attack? id like to see how people feel about the bar in different aspects of racing.
. also what form of motorsport do you usually partake in ? autocross? time attack? id like to see how people feel about the bar in different aspects of racing.