Mugen Type S Pads or Spoon Pads - Need Advice
11-23-2018, 03:50 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Mugen Type S Pads or Spoon Pads - Need Advice
Hi guys
Anyone tried these before? https://www.rhdjapan.com/mugen-type-...5-ap1-ap2.html
Mugen rates them from 100 ~ 650 degrees C and for the street driver who occasionally tracks the car. Looks like a wide heat range. Do they dust a lot? Do they squeal a lot on the street? What's their life span like in general?
How about these pads from Spoon? https://www.rhdjapan.com/spoon-sport...1-ap2-fn2.html
Spoon rates them from 0 ~ 400 degrees C and for street to circuit as well. That's a much lower heat range than the Mugen above though. Dusty? Noisy? Life span?
I'm mainly spirited street but intend to start tracking soon. Perhaps I'll do 2 to 3 track days per year... not boosted... yet.
Would Endless MX72 be ultimately the better choice than the above? How about the Project Mu NS400 or HC+ 800 in comparison?
Arigato gozaimasu (thank you very much)
Anyone tried these before? https://www.rhdjapan.com/mugen-type-...5-ap1-ap2.html
Mugen rates them from 100 ~ 650 degrees C and for the street driver who occasionally tracks the car. Looks like a wide heat range. Do they dust a lot? Do they squeal a lot on the street? What's their life span like in general?
How about these pads from Spoon? https://www.rhdjapan.com/spoon-sport...1-ap2-fn2.html
Spoon rates them from 0 ~ 400 degrees C and for street to circuit as well. That's a much lower heat range than the Mugen above though. Dusty? Noisy? Life span?
I'm mainly spirited street but intend to start tracking soon. Perhaps I'll do 2 to 3 track days per year... not boosted... yet.
Would Endless MX72 be ultimately the better choice than the above? How about the Project Mu NS400 or HC+ 800 in comparison?
Arigato gozaimasu (thank you very much)
11-23-2018, 08:19 AM
#2
The OEM pads are the absolute best blend of dust, bite, rotor life, noise, life span, and temp range, etc. The amount of engineering and testing and specifying for unlikely scenarios that OEM's perform is mind blowing.
Any other pad will deviate toward one end of that "web chart".
If you want something additional to the OEM envelope, just decide what you want to give up.
Hopefully, that was already obvious.
It seems as if you're looking for a pad that makes more friction and works at a higher temp than OEM.
If you are looking for a pad that works on track and street....unfortunately, it doesn't really exist. Stoptech 309's get close. But with compromises on both ends.
Or just for spirited street driving? These exist, but you should know if you want low temp performance (something like Hawk HP+)?
Or something that gives up some initial bite, but is geared toward higher temp fade resistance (something like Stoptech 309)?
ANY high friction pad will dust a quite a bit. The only question is how corrosive or "permanent" that dust is.
MOST high Mu pads will also make some noise at some point in the temp range.
Almost every high Mu pad will have a very abbreviated life span and the semi metallic ones will take the rotors down quickly as well.
What items do you want to give up least? Like, for example, "dust is fine, but noise isn't!" or "dust and some noise is fine as long as my wheels and fenders don't rust from the brake dust caking". etc.
Any other pad will deviate toward one end of that "web chart".
If you want something additional to the OEM envelope, just decide what you want to give up.
Hopefully, that was already obvious.
It seems as if you're looking for a pad that makes more friction and works at a higher temp than OEM.
If you are looking for a pad that works on track and street....unfortunately, it doesn't really exist. Stoptech 309's get close. But with compromises on both ends.
Or just for spirited street driving? These exist, but you should know if you want low temp performance (something like Hawk HP+)?
Or something that gives up some initial bite, but is geared toward higher temp fade resistance (something like Stoptech 309)?
ANY high friction pad will dust a quite a bit. The only question is how corrosive or "permanent" that dust is.
MOST high Mu pads will also make some noise at some point in the temp range.
Almost every high Mu pad will have a very abbreviated life span and the semi metallic ones will take the rotors down quickly as well.
What items do you want to give up least? Like, for example, "dust is fine, but noise isn't!" or "dust and some noise is fine as long as my wheels and fenders don't rust from the brake dust caking". etc.
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ap2wot (04-26-2019)
11-25-2018, 09:01 PM
#3
Thread Starter
The OEM pads are the absolute best blend of dust, bite, rotor life, noise, life span, and temp range, etc. The amount of engineering and testing and specifying for unlikely scenarios that OEM's perform is mind blowing.
Any other pad will deviate toward one end of that "web chart".
If you want something additional to the OEM envelope, just decide what you want to give up.
Hopefully, that was already obvious.
It seems as if you're looking for a pad that makes more friction and works at a higher temp than OEM.
If you are looking for a pad that works on track and street....unfortunately, it doesn't really exist. Stoptech 309's get close. But with compromises on both ends.
Or just for spirited street driving? These exist, but you should know if you want low temp performance (something like Hawk HP+)?
Or something that gives up some initial bite, but is geared toward higher temp fade resistance (something like Stoptech 309)?
ANY high friction pad will dust a quite a bit. The only question is how corrosive or "permanent" that dust is.
MOST high Mu pads will also make some noise at some point in the temp range.
Almost every high Mu pad will have a very abbreviated life span and the semi metallic ones will take the rotors down quickly as well.
What items do you want to give up least? Like, for example, "dust is fine, but noise isn't!" or "dust and some noise is fine as long as my wheels and fenders don't rust from the brake dust caking". etc.
Any other pad will deviate toward one end of that "web chart".
If you want something additional to the OEM envelope, just decide what you want to give up.
Hopefully, that was already obvious.
It seems as if you're looking for a pad that makes more friction and works at a higher temp than OEM.
If you are looking for a pad that works on track and street....unfortunately, it doesn't really exist. Stoptech 309's get close. But with compromises on both ends.
Or just for spirited street driving? These exist, but you should know if you want low temp performance (something like Hawk HP+)?
Or something that gives up some initial bite, but is geared toward higher temp fade resistance (something like Stoptech 309)?
ANY high friction pad will dust a quite a bit. The only question is how corrosive or "permanent" that dust is.
MOST high Mu pads will also make some noise at some point in the temp range.
Almost every high Mu pad will have a very abbreviated life span and the semi metallic ones will take the rotors down quickly as well.
What items do you want to give up least? Like, for example, "dust is fine, but noise isn't!" or "dust and some noise is fine as long as my wheels and fenders don't rust from the brake dust caking". etc.
Currently I'm on EBC Yellows and they bite more than OEM and have been said to take more abuse well even in track situations although not all out track. They're also a street/track capable pad, not just street nor just track. They dust A LOT however that dust washes off easily and doesn't damage the wheels or the fenders. So, if I had to go with one of the above pads as an alternative to the Yellows I'd like them to be as easy to wash off and not exhibit any noise on the street. Perhaps some noise while it warms up is OK but not for a prolonged time. The Mugen Type S seems more track capable, or maybe even more able to withstand hard driving runs more than the Spoon set I listed can due to their higher temp range. They may be more aggressive than the EBC Yellows. I am currently on my stock rotors and don't want to get them chewed up through experimenting with other pads. I also found Seido-Ya SM400 which are capable of 50-650 degrees c. Not sure if they're semi metallic or even if the Yellows I currently have are semi metallic...
I'll look into the Stoptech 309 you mentioned. Stoptech in general seems quite affordable.
11-26-2018, 04:35 AM
#4
Thread Starter
Might go for these from Project Mu rather. The HC 800: Project Mu HC+800 Brake Pads - Honda/Acura (Front) - PH8F336 - Honda S2000 00-09 | Evasive Motorsports
Thoughts, experiences?
Thoughts, experiences?
11-26-2018, 09:29 AM
#5
Thanks.
Currently I'm on EBC Yellows and they bite more than OEM and have been said to take more abuse well even in track situations although not all out track. They're also a street/track capable pad, not just street nor just track. They dust A LOT however that dust washes off easily and doesn't damage the wheels or the fenders. So, if I had to go with one of the above pads as an alternative to the Yellows I'd like them to be as easy to wash off and not exhibit any noise on the street. Perhaps some noise while it warms up is OK but not for a prolonged time. The Mugen Type S seems more track capable, or maybe even more able to withstand hard driving runs more than the Spoon set I listed can due to their higher temp range. They may be more aggressive than the EBC Yellows. I am currently on my stock rotors and don't want to get them chewed up through experimenting with other pads. I also found Seido-Ya SM400 which are capable of 50-650 degrees c. Not sure if they're semi metallic or even if the Yellows I currently have are semi metallic...
I'll look into the Stoptech 309 you mentioned. Stoptech in general seems quite affordable.
Currently I'm on EBC Yellows and they bite more than OEM and have been said to take more abuse well even in track situations although not all out track. They're also a street/track capable pad, not just street nor just track. They dust A LOT however that dust washes off easily and doesn't damage the wheels or the fenders. So, if I had to go with one of the above pads as an alternative to the Yellows I'd like them to be as easy to wash off and not exhibit any noise on the street. Perhaps some noise while it warms up is OK but not for a prolonged time. The Mugen Type S seems more track capable, or maybe even more able to withstand hard driving runs more than the Spoon set I listed can due to their higher temp range. They may be more aggressive than the EBC Yellows. I am currently on my stock rotors and don't want to get them chewed up through experimenting with other pads. I also found Seido-Ya SM400 which are capable of 50-650 degrees c. Not sure if they're semi metallic or even if the Yellows I currently have are semi metallic...
I'll look into the Stoptech 309 you mentioned. Stoptech in general seems quite affordable.
I have 2 sets of pads and 2 sets of rotors. One mated set for street use. One for track use.
I use stoptech 309's on the street (overkill). I would do better to just use a plain Jane semi-metallic.
I use Carbotech compounds on track - compound chosen for what track I'm going to (also overkill...but I already have these compounds laying about).
Stoptech 309's are also organic. In a lot of ways, they are similar to yellows...except I haven't seen them fall apart. I have used them on track in the past.
309's will not work reliably on anything but a completely stock S2000 with 300TW tyres. They are ~1300-1400F pads. **I sometimes do use them on the rear of the car on slower race tracks, as an exception to what I said above.
Might go for these from Project Mu rather. The HC 800: Project Mu HC+800 Brake Pads - Honda/Acura (Front) - PH8F336 - Honda S2000 00-09 | Evasive Motorsports
Thoughts, experiences?
Thoughts, experiences?
They *should* work if your car is close to stock. They seem to be more stable than the 309 when used near their max temp.
Gotta remember...309's are CHEAP (with a capital C-H-E-A and P) for a reason.
I wouldn't fret much about chewing up rotors. Buy cheap rotors and resist bringing them close to your heart by naming them, humanizing them, or becoming attached to them in any other emotional sense.
Powerstop PSA (not PST) trackday pads may work as somewhat of a "dual use" pad...BUT they will definitely stain wheels, and the bite is AWFULLY weak once they've been used on track. Bite is ridiculously strong before they've been used on track. Also...they are MF'ing cheap.
11-26-2018, 09:15 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Yellows are organic...which is why the dust comes off and they are easy on rotors. They're pretty far from something I would trust on the track. I tried them a few years back and they crumbled apart and physically fell off of the backing plate after like 1 or 2 track days. Lots of people have the same experience. They say they've been reformulated...but...I don't really use "track/street" blends anymore.
I have 2 sets of pads and 2 sets of rotors. One mated set for street use. One for track use.
I use stoptech 309's on the street (overkill). I would do better to just use a plain Jane semi-metallic.
I use Carbotech compounds on track - compound chosen for what track I'm going to (also overkill...but I already have these compounds laying about).
Stoptech 309's are also organic. In a lot of ways, they are similar to yellows...except I haven't seen them fall apart. I have used them on track in the past.
309's will not work reliably on anything but a completely stock S2000 with 300TW tyres. They are ~1300-1400F pads. **I sometimes do use them on the rear of the car on slower race tracks, as an exception to what I said above.
They're ~1500F (800C) pads. I like their initial bite. They will very likely stain your wheels, as they are metallic (IIRC). I think the dust I had from these mostly came off, though.
They *should* work if your car is close to stock. They seem to be more stable than the 309 when used near their max temp.
Gotta remember...309's are CHEAP (with a capital C-H-E-A and P) for a reason.
I wouldn't fret much about chewing up rotors. Buy cheap rotors and resist bringing them close to your heart by naming them, humanizing them, or becoming attached to them in any other emotional sense.
Powerstop PSA (not PST) trackday pads may work as somewhat of a "dual use" pad...BUT they will definitely stain wheels, and the bite is AWFULLY weak once they've been used on track. Bite is ridiculously strong before they've been used on track. Also...they are MF'ing cheap.
I have 2 sets of pads and 2 sets of rotors. One mated set for street use. One for track use.
I use stoptech 309's on the street (overkill). I would do better to just use a plain Jane semi-metallic.
I use Carbotech compounds on track - compound chosen for what track I'm going to (also overkill...but I already have these compounds laying about).
Stoptech 309's are also organic. In a lot of ways, they are similar to yellows...except I haven't seen them fall apart. I have used them on track in the past.
309's will not work reliably on anything but a completely stock S2000 with 300TW tyres. They are ~1300-1400F pads. **I sometimes do use them on the rear of the car on slower race tracks, as an exception to what I said above.
They're ~1500F (800C) pads. I like their initial bite. They will very likely stain your wheels, as they are metallic (IIRC). I think the dust I had from these mostly came off, though.
They *should* work if your car is close to stock. They seem to be more stable than the 309 when used near their max temp.
Gotta remember...309's are CHEAP (with a capital C-H-E-A and P) for a reason.
I wouldn't fret much about chewing up rotors. Buy cheap rotors and resist bringing them close to your heart by naming them, humanizing them, or becoming attached to them in any other emotional sense.
Powerstop PSA (not PST) trackday pads may work as somewhat of a "dual use" pad...BUT they will definitely stain wheels, and the bite is AWFULLY weak once they've been used on track. Bite is ridiculously strong before they've been used on track. Also...they are MF'ing cheap.
Are the 309's also called Sport or "performance"? I couldn't find anything else. If you could post a link to the exact 309's you bought I'd appreciate it.
As for the HC+ 800: your opinion on their bite and longevity under track conditions is consistent with others who tried them so that must be a good thing. I'm quite keen on these. Will they fit in directly without shaving off some of the corners, etc? I'd like to protect my wheels but hey, can't have everything lol. I would get Meguiars brake dust barrier to make it easier to clean the dust off. My car is close to stock currently. She will be supercharged sometime next year but I believe I'll be doing my first track day in NA form. The Project Mu pads come in at $127.66 from Evasive so that's a pretty sweet deal for that much brake. They're "super graphite metallic" pads: https://www.project-mu.co.jp/en/prod...hcplus800.html
"Don't get emotionally attached to the rotors..."
Last edited by RolanTHUNDER; 11-26-2018 at 11:07 PM. Reason: typo
11-27-2018, 07:23 AM
#7
The reason I call them 309's is because their name has changed confusingly.
Used to be "Street Performance"...and now they're "Sport". The confusing part is that they also have a pad named "Street", which is a performance street sport pad.
eh?
the right ones have a part number starting with 309. They're currently called SPORT.
the PMU I have didn't need mods to fit. But its a good idea to check the fit and shave a small amount if they don't slide easily. They're aftermarket parts...so never trust that they'll just fit.
They will chew your rotors to bits though, M8.
Used to be "Street Performance"...and now they're "Sport". The confusing part is that they also have a pad named "Street", which is a performance street sport pad.
eh?
the right ones have a part number starting with 309. They're currently called SPORT.
the PMU I have didn't need mods to fit. But its a good idea to check the fit and shave a small amount if they don't slide easily. They're aftermarket parts...so never trust that they'll just fit.
They will chew your rotors to bits though, M8.
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11-27-2018, 08:59 PM
#8
Thread Starter
The reason I call them 309's is because their name has changed confusingly.
Used to be "Street Performance"...and now they're "Sport". The confusing part is that they also have a pad named "Street", which is a performance street sport pad.
eh?
the right ones have a part number starting with 309. They're currently called SPORT.
the PMU I have didn't need mods to fit. But its a good idea to check the fit and shave a small amount if they don't slide easily. They're aftermarket parts...so never trust that they'll just fit.
They will chew your rotors to bits though, M8.
Used to be "Street Performance"...and now they're "Sport". The confusing part is that they also have a pad named "Street", which is a performance street sport pad.
eh?
the right ones have a part number starting with 309. They're currently called SPORT.
the PMU I have didn't need mods to fit. But its a good idea to check the fit and shave a small amount if they don't slide easily. They're aftermarket parts...so never trust that they'll just fit.
They will chew your rotors to bits though, M8.
Might as well give the full Stoptech 309 set a go in place of my EBC yellows...
When you say the Mu will eat up my rotors do you mean that will happen even while driving on the street where braking won't even be close to max temp? I ask this because I have to be honest and say that's where I am 100% of the time until I take the car to the track probably in January 2019...
11-28-2018, 06:48 AM
#9
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Waterford, MI - America's High Five
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Powerstop Track Day PST pads IMO. They're been the best ones I've tried for the money.
PST = less aggressive compound
PSA = More aggressive compound
I've used both for track days and both have great street manors as well. They both dust quite a bit though....gotta have a trade off somewhere. My front PST's are still going after ~10 track days last year w/ front brake ducts. Had to replace the rears after the whole season though.
PST = less aggressive compound
PSA = More aggressive compound
I've used both for track days and both have great street manors as well. They both dust quite a bit though....gotta have a trade off somewhere. My front PST's are still going after ~10 track days last year w/ front brake ducts. Had to replace the rears after the whole season though.
11-28-2018, 07:52 AM
#10
Confusing indeed lol. Found a front and rear set of 309.xxxxx on ebay for only $106! It would cost me $127.66 for the front set of HC+800 alone from evasive and then there's $20 shipping to my NY forwarding address...thought it would be free shipping in the continental US?!
Might as well give the full Stoptech 309 set a go in place of my EBC yellows...
When you say the Mu will eat up my rotors do you mean that will happen even while driving on the street where braking won't even be close to max temp? I ask this because I have to be honest and say that's where I am 100% of the time until I take the car to the track probably in January 2019...
Might as well give the full Stoptech 309 set a go in place of my EBC yellows...
When you say the Mu will eat up my rotors do you mean that will happen even while driving on the street where braking won't even be close to max temp? I ask this because I have to be honest and say that's where I am 100% of the time until I take the car to the track probably in January 2019...
Best pricing I've seen on 309's is either Thmotorsports or rockauto.
The PMU are semi-metallic pads. They're inherently hard on rotors just like any other semi-metallic. Most track oriented pads will chew up rotors AND also wear out faster themselves during street use.
Again...there is no such thing as a "street/track" pad. It doesn't exist. What DOES exist is clever marketing phrases like "A TRUE STREETABLE TRACK PAD" or "SATISFYING LIGHT BEER".
The 309's get somewhat close to being a "track/street" pad...but they fall VERY short when used for track. You'll be compromising quite a bit on that end as compared to a real track pad. They're prone to some crumbling when pushed past their temp (they're organic) and they're not entirely stable for track temps when using the stock braking system. I sure AF wouldn't use them on anything faster than a stock S2000 on 300TW on a track.
On the street, they feel like factory pads in terms of bite. But they're very gentle on rotors and the dust washes off super easy.
The PMU is geared more toward track use, but you'll be giving up rotor life and the dust will potentially stain everything you hold close.
Either one WILL need a proper bedding procedure before you can use them without fear of death.